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NEW PRODUCT: HH Model x HaoYuTOYS Joint Launch: 1/6 Imperial Legion - Eagle Flag/Aquilifer Motif

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Stryker2011

Stryker2011
Founding Father
ImperialLegion - NEW PRODUCT: HH Model x HaoYuTOYS Joint Launch: 1/6 Imperial Legion - Eagle Flag/Aquilifer Motif 17511010

HH Model x HaoYuTOYS Joint Launch: 1/6 Imperial Legion - Eagle Standard / Aquilifer Motif

configuration list:
- 1/6 simulation head carving
- Movable body
- 6 replacement hand garments:
- red top
- Chain Mail
- blue pants
- Beast head cloak
- red scarf
- Bracers
- Belt
- shoes
- Armor
- Helmet (metal)
- Chest accessories:
- Wide blade long 劒 (metal)
- Short sword (metal)
- Shield
- Eagle flag
- mask
- Round platform
-------------------------------------------------- ------
HH Model X HaoYuTOYS : 1/6 Imperial Army — Aquilifer

Configuration list:
-one(1) 1/6 simulation head carving
-one(1) Movable entity
-six(6) Pieces of Interchangeable Palms
Costumes:
-one(1) Red jacket
-one(1) Chain armor
-one(1) Blue pants
-one(1) Lion's cloak
-one(1) Red scarf
-one(2) Brown wristband
-one(1) belt
-one(1) Shoes
-one(1) Leg armor
-one(1) helmet(metal)
-one(1) Chest medal
Accessory:
-one(1) Long sword(metal)
-one(1) dagger(metal)
-one(1) Shield
-one(1) Eagle flag
-one(1) mask
-one(1) Round platform

ImperialLegion - NEW PRODUCT: HH Model x HaoYuTOYS Joint Launch: 1/6 Imperial Legion - Eagle Flag/Aquilifer Motif 1895
ImperialLegion - NEW PRODUCT: HH Model x HaoYuTOYS Joint Launch: 1/6 Imperial Legion - Eagle Flag/Aquilifer Motif 2355
ImperialLegion - NEW PRODUCT: HH Model x HaoYuTOYS Joint Launch: 1/6 Imperial Legion - Eagle Flag/Aquilifer Motif 3256
ImperialLegion - NEW PRODUCT: HH Model x HaoYuTOYS Joint Launch: 1/6 Imperial Legion - Eagle Flag/Aquilifer Motif 4234
ImperialLegion - NEW PRODUCT: HH Model x HaoYuTOYS Joint Launch: 1/6 Imperial Legion - Eagle Flag/Aquilifer Motif 5226
ImperialLegion - NEW PRODUCT: HH Model x HaoYuTOYS Joint Launch: 1/6 Imperial Legion - Eagle Flag/Aquilifer Motif 6219
ImperialLegion - NEW PRODUCT: HH Model x HaoYuTOYS Joint Launch: 1/6 Imperial Legion - Eagle Flag/Aquilifer Motif 7211
ImperialLegion - NEW PRODUCT: HH Model x HaoYuTOYS Joint Launch: 1/6 Imperial Legion - Eagle Flag/Aquilifer Motif 8200
ImperialLegion - NEW PRODUCT: HH Model x HaoYuTOYS Joint Launch: 1/6 Imperial Legion - Eagle Flag/Aquilifer Motif 9189
ImperialLegion - NEW PRODUCT: HH Model x HaoYuTOYS Joint Launch: 1/6 Imperial Legion - Eagle Flag/Aquilifer Motif 10176
ImperialLegion - NEW PRODUCT: HH Model x HaoYuTOYS Joint Launch: 1/6 Imperial Legion - Eagle Flag/Aquilifer Motif 11172
ImperialLegion - NEW PRODUCT: HH Model x HaoYuTOYS Joint Launch: 1/6 Imperial Legion - Eagle Flag/Aquilifer Motif 12156
ImperialLegion - NEW PRODUCT: HH Model x HaoYuTOYS Joint Launch: 1/6 Imperial Legion - Eagle Flag/Aquilifer Motif 13146
ImperialLegion - NEW PRODUCT: HH Model x HaoYuTOYS Joint Launch: 1/6 Imperial Legion - Eagle Flag/Aquilifer Motif 14130
ImperialLegion - NEW PRODUCT: HH Model x HaoYuTOYS Joint Launch: 1/6 Imperial Legion - Eagle Flag/Aquilifer Motif 15119
ImperialLegion - NEW PRODUCT: HH Model x HaoYuTOYS Joint Launch: 1/6 Imperial Legion - Eagle Flag/Aquilifer Motif 16112
ImperialLegion - NEW PRODUCT: HH Model x HaoYuTOYS Joint Launch: 1/6 Imperial Legion - Eagle Flag/Aquilifer Motif 17105
ImperialLegion - NEW PRODUCT: HH Model x HaoYuTOYS Joint Launch: 1/6 Imperial Legion - Eagle Flag/Aquilifer Motif 1896
ImperialLegion - NEW PRODUCT: HH Model x HaoYuTOYS Joint Launch: 1/6 Imperial Legion - Eagle Flag/Aquilifer Motif 1980
ImperialLegion - NEW PRODUCT: HH Model x HaoYuTOYS Joint Launch: 1/6 Imperial Legion - Eagle Flag/Aquilifer Motif 2073
ImperialLegion - NEW PRODUCT: HH Model x HaoYuTOYS Joint Launch: 1/6 Imperial Legion - Eagle Flag/Aquilifer Motif 21118
ImperialLegion - NEW PRODUCT: HH Model x HaoYuTOYS Joint Launch: 1/6 Imperial Legion - Eagle Flag/Aquilifer Motif 22103
ImperialLegion - NEW PRODUCT: HH Model x HaoYuTOYS Joint Launch: 1/6 Imperial Legion - Eagle Flag/Aquilifer Motif 2356

#newproduct #HHModel #HaoYuToys #ImperialLegion #AncientRoman #EagleFlag #AquiliferMotif #male #military #historical

shazzdan

shazzdan
All that trouble to make armour from mail links and they do it the wrong way round. It needs to be rotated 90 degrees. When mail is made like that the links stretch open and don't work as armour.

I wish they would stop putting stupid Hollywood wrist bracers on Roman soldiers.

The rest of it is pretty cool. The lion pelt is a nice touch.


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GubernatorFan

GubernatorFan
Founding Father
Looks promising, although I would not have looked closely enough to spot the mail links inaccuracy. I would also imagine that the shin guards were fairly rare at this point, although I'd have to look more closely at the standard bearers in my reference books to be sure. Some of what has jumped out at me as inaccurate equipment in recent Roman military figures has in fact made an appearance in recent publications. That does not necessarily prove it accurate, but a case has been made for it (though I imagine there is room for argument). The lion pelt is impressive, and looks more accurate than the one that came with TBLeague's Hercules. Also, this would be the third Roman figure by HH/Haoyu -- the first is already out and mine appears to be very good quality (it is the infantryman figure depicted flanking the aquilifer in the first photo). I will eventually get around to reviewing it.


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rollotomasi

rollotomasi
I see Davos Seaworth in the sculpt! Nice!

Delanie

Delanie
I'm going to display my ignorance of Roman soldiers again

what's wrong with the braces?

I can go with the idea of the ring mail but at that time were the rings forged or just bent?

I was always under the impression that the eagle barer had to defend the eagle which i suppose explains the fighting scenes but what would he do with it whilst fighting?



skywalkersaga

skywalkersaga
Ok, I am not an expert on this era at all, but as far as I'm aware, the sort of stereotypical leather wrist and/or arm band as depicted in movies is not something that would have necessarily been commonly worn at this time. It seems to be a modern misconception of what an ancient type of warrior should be wearing....perhaps because early costume designs were based on inaccurate ideas of ancient armour, or because 'bare' wrists on men are viewed as somehow less masculine-looking, idk. 

Which isn't to say Roman men never wore anything over their forearms or wrists at all... there was something called the 'manica' which was like a sleeve of metal plates [often seen on gladiators in movies, iirc], and also decorative gold or silver bands worn more for display. And of course, arguments can always be made that 'just because there is no hard evidence doesn't mean things didn't exist', but more often than not the leather arm bands seen in films are included simply because people think that a 'warrior's' arm looks odd without them, rather than being a thoughtful reconstruction of an actual or even hypothetical type of armour.


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"The happy ending of the fairy tale, the myth, and the divine comedy of the soul, is to be read,
not as a contradiction, but as a transcendence of the universal tragedy of man."

Focusing on the Prequels, Clone Wars, and Original Trilogy eras (NO 'sequels', thanks!)
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Spyder

Spyder
I find it hard to believe that of the hundreds and thousand of Roman soldiers who existed, none of them would have worn leather bracers on their forearms. How many of them would have been wounded in that area and then decided to protect the area? I'm guessing quite a lot because it just makes sense, especially if one had suffered a wound on the forearm..which was quite common. I don't find the forearm protection inaccurate in the least.

"Absence of evidence is NOT Evidence of absence". Just because there isn't archeological evidence doesn't mean anything more than just that.
I'm just happy that we can have access to some nice 1:6 Roman soldiers which better than nothing.

skywalkersaga

skywalkersaga
I meant no denigration of the above figure, which is very aesthetically pleasing to me and is probably one of the nicer looking Roman figures I've seen offered lately. I was just trying to answer Delanie's question about why those kinds of arm braces are often considered to be at least in part a result of creative license. : )


_________________
"The happy ending of the fairy tale, the myth, and the divine comedy of the soul, is to be read,
not as a contradiction, but as a transcendence of the universal tragedy of man."

Focusing on the Prequels, Clone Wars, and Original Trilogy eras (NO 'sequels', thanks!)
https://the-far-bright-center.tumblr.com/

GubernatorFan

GubernatorFan
Founding Father
To address some of the points above -- it is as skywalkersaga put it. There is no pictorial or archaeological evidence for Roman infantry wearing bracers or vambraces, leather or otherwise. In that respect it does seem to be something popularized by fantasy or historically inaccurate films. The only units that seem to have had such protection (usually only worn on one arm -- typically the left) were archers, which were present among the ranks of the auxiliaries, but were a relatively small portion of the armed forces. But like Spyder said, what's important is having access to such figures -- if one wants it accurate, one can simply take the bracers off (and hope they did not stain the lower arms). The same can be said for the shin guards.

I did a very quick check in the reference books I had handy and they seem to confirm this is indeed inaccurate. This includes the little volume Osprey has just published specifically on this type of units. It and some other recent works are by the sometimes revisionist and controversial Raffaele d'Amato, and even he does not propose the use of bracers for anyone but archers. None of the standard bearers were shown with shin guards either.

https://ospreypublishing.com/roman-standards-standard-bearers-1

The manica armored sleeve did exist, and although it now appears to have been more widespread than previously thought, it was still very rarely used, being something more typical for gladiators. For defense, the signifer seems to have carried ("chain") mail, a circular shield, sword and dagger; it was the responsibility of the legionaries around him to protect him and it was the most abysmal shame to allow the eagle or other standards to fall or be captured by the enemy.

As for "the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence," that is technically always true, but rarely helpful. Just as an example, consider that one logical extension of that would allow you to mount your Roman cavalry on unicorns. I know it's an extreme example, but I'm just making a point.


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shazzdan

shazzdan
Spyder wrote:I find it hard to believe that of the hundreds and thousand of Roman soldiers who existed,  none of them would have worn leather bracers on their forearms. How many of them would have been wounded in that area and then decided to protect the area?

We have plenty of evidence covering a period of a thousand years including pictorial, textual and archaeological. They never in their entire history wore wrist bracers. People like me who actually make and experiment with this stuff know that it is surprisingly difficult to get one to stay in place on the wrist without attaching it to armour that covers the rest of the arm. If a Roman tried wearing one, he would have discarded it after his first battle.

"Absence of of evidence is NOT Evidence of absence". Just because there isn't archeological evidence doesn't mean anything more than just that.

Using this logic the Romans wore pink tutus and fought with bananas. Proper study of history involves actual evidence. When new evidence is produced, our conclusions are modified.


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Stryker2011

Stryker2011
Founding Father
Play nice fellas.


_________________
Mark

He who dies with the most toys wins!

ImperialLegion - NEW PRODUCT: HH Model x HaoYuTOYS Joint Launch: 1/6 Imperial Legion - Eagle Flag/Aquilifer Motif Carrie13

Delanie

Delanie
Thanks for answering folks I was just curious although one of the answers does raise other questions but i wont post here as it doesn't directly relate to the figure, and i don't want to inflame or derail the discussion.

Suffice it to say I actually like this figure even though I am not fond of the fascination with the roman 'civilisation'

scalawag

scalawag
I find it interesting that they would make a figure like this and not do enough basic research to know that the Eagle is a standard and not a "flag". It could of course just be a translation thing but even so its schoolboy stuff really. Doesn't inspire confidence in the rest really.

Paul


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shazzdan

shazzdan
In some languages there aren't two different words to distinguish between "standard" and "flag". Both would be called the same thing. They use the term aquilifer ("eagle bearer") so their intention is clear.


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skywalkersaga

skywalkersaga
I was going to say...that seems like a translation thing to me. There is a word in Mandarin that can mean both/either, so google translate probably just chose the first one.


_________________
"The happy ending of the fairy tale, the myth, and the divine comedy of the soul, is to be read,
not as a contradiction, but as a transcendence of the universal tragedy of man."

Focusing on the Prequels, Clone Wars, and Original Trilogy eras (NO 'sequels', thanks!)
https://the-far-bright-center.tumblr.com/

GubernatorFan

GubernatorFan
Founding Father
I agree about the ambiguity, but even in English the term "military standards" could apply to flags. But the inclusion of the proper Latin term does reflect the intended character correctly.


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lurpdog101

lurpdog101
really nice looking figure. I missed out on the 1st 2 due to lack of cash, but still hoping to pick them up. Will pick this up too. Won't comment on anything about historical as lot of farbies around lol

https://www.hellblazerbiz.com

scalawag

scalawag
Fair enough I stand corrected.

Paul


_________________
I can't see the trees for the Forest
ImperialLegion - NEW PRODUCT: HH Model x HaoYuTOYS Joint Launch: 1/6 Imperial Legion - Eagle Flag/Aquilifer Motif Yv5cCVM

blackpool

blackpool
Definitely gonna grab that head for a custom Ser Davos!!!

The set is beautiful, a chance I don't collect that era because I would build an army and conquer Europe (again lol)

As for the historical accuracy, I don't want to throw water on hot stones but sorry @shazzdan there are some evidences of use of bracers or forearms protections in the roman army (dunno where you got that they were never ever used in the whole roman history lol)

While not a part of the regular gear at first, the manica is the most famous example of arm protection used in the roman army, its origin is gaulish though, and it was used by gladiators at first. it consists in bent plates of iron which cover the foream, or the full arm, sometimes even up to the shoulder head. The roman army lately used the shorter version called "lorica manica" which was an extension of the "lorica segmentata", the common chest armor.

Evidence of the use of these manica can be found on various legionaries tombstones which used to be engraved and decorated with sculptures of their armors and weapons. The most famous being Sextus Valerus Severus, and Gaius Annius Salutus.

Out of the military, leather straps, wrists bands, and such were and still are commonly used by stone, iron, or wood craftmen, butchers, wrestlers, athletes... In fact their use became less common in some works done by slaves during the roman era. But there are evidences of use of leather straps and wrist bands from before the roman era (the egyptians come to my mind first)

Anyway sorry for the digression, while I'm not a military expert at all, a youth of reading "Asterix n Obelix" made me a fan of that historic period, got some good books from my grandparents covering the roman era quite well Smile

shazzdan

shazzdan
blackpool wrote:As for the historical accuracy, I don't want to throw water on hot stones but sorry @shazzdan there are some evidences of use of bracers or forearms protections in the roman army (dunno where you got that they were never ever used in the whole roman history lol)

While not a part of the regular gear at first, the manica is the most famous example of arm protection used in the roman army, its origin is gaulish though, and it was used by gladiators at first. it consists in bent plates of iron which cover the foream, or the full arm, sometimes even up to the shoulder head. The roman army lately used the shorter version called "lorica manica" which was an extension of the "lorica segmentata", the common chest armor.

What does a segmented manica have to do with these Hollywood leather wrist bracers?


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GubernatorFan

GubernatorFan
Founding Father
blackpool wrote:As for the historical accuracy, I don't want to throw water on hot stones but sorry @shazzdan there are some evidences of use of bracers or forearms protections in the roman army (dunno where you got that they were never ever used in the whole roman history lol)

While not a part of the regular gear at first, the manica is the most famous example of arm protection used in the roman army, its origin is gaulish though, and it was used by gladiators at first. it consists in bent plates of iron which cover the foream, or the full arm, sometimes even up to the shoulder head. The roman army lately used the shorter version called "lorica manica" which was an extension of the "lorica segmentata", the common chest armor.

Evidence of the use of these manica can be found on various legionaries tombstones which used to be engraved and decorated with sculptures of their armors and weapons. The most famous being Sextus Valerus Severus, and Gaius Annius Salutus.

Out of the military, leather straps, wrists bands, and such were and still are commonly used by stone, iron, or wood craftmen, butchers, wrestlers, athletes... In fact their use became less common in some works done by slaves during the roman era. But there are evidences of use of leather straps and wrist bands from before the roman era (the egyptians come to my mind first)

You are right about use outside the military, and if you include archers, you would be right about the use of leather bracers in the Roman military. The non-Roman use isn't really the point here (and the supposed Egyptian arm defenses may have been elaborations of decorative bracelets anyway -- though I'd have to double check), nor is this anything like the manica proper, which is a sleeve covering the whole arm and carrying armored metal segments -- but this is not a manica. You can scroll up and read for more details, but basically none of the evidence that is available and none of the serious published reconstructions that I am aware of (and apparently shazzdan) gives such lower arm bracers to legionaries in general or aquilifers in particular. I really do think they tried to make the figure more interesting and the outfit more complex by adding the bracers and the shin guards to it -- they certainly look cooler than the bracelets or torques they might have actually worn. The good thing is, as I suggested above, that it is a cool figure and can be very easily modified to achieve accuracy -- if one wishes to do so -- by removing any offending and inaccurate pieces of equipment.


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Stryker2011

Stryker2011
Founding Father
Well, it may not be historically accurate, but as someone whose been involved in a couple of fights where my adversary had a knife -- and trust me, I don't care how good of a fighter you are, you get in a knife fight -- you're going to get cut -- I find them to be highly practical. The wrist is one of the most vulnerable spots on the human body, and I've seen guys bleed out (mostly due to adrenaline) that had no idea they were even hurt until it's too late. Wearing bracers would be one of the most common sense things a guy fighting with sharp, pokey things going up against a guy with sharp, pokey things could do.

As someone who follows "literary" history, and who has a collection of the writings of the Ancients, most literary scholars admit that we have only a tiny fraction of the writings of Caesar, Cicero, Plato, Aristotle, Homer, etc., so to suggest that we have every piece of written information from the age of Ancient Rome about what Roman soldiers did or did not wear is highly unlikely and suspect. Just my two cents.


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Mark

He who dies with the most toys wins!

ImperialLegion - NEW PRODUCT: HH Model x HaoYuTOYS Joint Launch: 1/6 Imperial Legion - Eagle Flag/Aquilifer Motif Carrie13

blackpool

blackpool
shazzdan wrote:
What does a segmented manica have to do with these Hollywood leather wrist bracers?

GubernatorFan wrote:
You are right about use outside the military, and if you include archers, you would be right about the use of leather bracers in the Roman military. The non-Roman use isn't really the point here (and the supposed Egyptian arm defenses may have been elaborations of decorative bracelets anyway -- though I'd have to double check), nor is this anything like the manica proper, which is a sleeve covering the whole arm and carrying armored metal segments -- but this is not a manica. You can scroll up and read for more details, but basically none of the evidence that is available and none of the serious published reconstructions that I am aware of (and apparently shazzdan) gives such lower arm bracers to legionaries in general or aquilifers in particular. I really do think they tried to make the figure more interesting and the outfit more complex by adding the bracers and the shin guards to it -- they certainly look cooler than the bracelets or torques they might have actually worn. The good thing is, as I suggested above, that it is a cool figure and can be very easily modified to achieve accuracy -- if one wishes to do so -- by removing any offending and inaccurate pieces of equipment.

I'm just pointing that arm protections were indeed in use in the roman army, the manica being the most iconic as part of the "lorica segmentata" armor. And since all troops weren't equiped with a full armor it's highly probable that legionaries found other ways to protect their wrists, may it be ironmonger/carpenter/butcher/gladiator bracers, clothes or leather wrist bands...

While I agree with you that the decorative aspect might be fantasy, legionnaries had some accessories like extra padding, leather straps, mainly to maintain their armor, belt, and boots, and surely used them as wrist protection (just like soldiers these days) Reason why I wouldn't call for historical inaccuracy on this point, once again, wielding a sword and using a pilum all day, the chances are high that every soldier had personal ways to protect their hands and wrists both to prevent from breaking and to maintain them in the axis of the hand (just as they had variants of the caliglae boots depending on the climate and conditions).



GubernatorFan

GubernatorFan
Founding Father
Stryker and blackpool: Out of my respect and affection to you both I will not argue further in this thread, apart from just pointing out that despite some leeway in the interpretation of the evidence, there is copious written, pictorial, and archaeological evidence for the equipment of the Roman army and especially the legions; this purports to be a legionary standard bearer and is marketed as such. It is not marketed as an ancient-like fantasy warrior or a hypothetical what-might-make-sense warrior (I agree that it does make sense to protect one's wrists and lower arms, but note shazzdan's comment about the actual practicality of bracers and also remember that these troops are intended to be deployed in close formation, with each soldier's shield overlapping the under-protected side of the next, etc). That is why some of us find it natural and appropriate to comment on the unfounded choices that have been made in equipping this figure. But, again, one can modify the figure to one's tastes, if one so chooses to do.


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shazzdan

shazzdan
What made sense to them does not always make sense to us. Protective wrist bracers are surprisingly rare in all martial cultures, not just Rome. IMO they didn't use them because they weren't practical. If one slips on your wrist at the wrong moment, you are dead.


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scalawag

scalawag
For gods sakes people, if you don't like the arm braces when you buy it leave them off, and if you do like them leave them on.
For the love of mike it's a plastic doll, not a treatise on the dress of a Roman Standard bearer.

Paul


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ImperialLegion - NEW PRODUCT: HH Model x HaoYuTOYS Joint Launch: 1/6 Imperial Legion - Eagle Flag/Aquilifer Motif Yv5cCVM

lurpdog101

lurpdog101
scalawag wrote:For gods sakes people, if you don't like the arm braces when you buy it leave them off, and if you do like them leave them on.
For the love of mike it's a plastic doll, not a treatise on the dress of a Roman Standard bearer.

Paul

Laughing Laughing that's why I stayed out the debate on that...nicely said

https://www.hellblazerbiz.com

blackpool

blackpool
I knew I shouldn't have replied when I read the "never ever in their whole history"... You can't talk with omniscient historians... humble bow to your absolute certainty and knowledge guys

shazzdan

shazzdan
It is no different to the modern military figures on the market. Collectors pay a premium for accuracy and rightly complain if they are not. If these figures aren't accurate then the sellers have no right to be charging these kinds of prices.


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blackpool

blackpool
being accurate to contemporary military is one thing, being accurate from what we think we know about the roman military 2000 years ago, that's another thing... But you proved you know it all bro Smile

Spyder

Spyder
blackpool wrote:being accurate to contemporary military is one thing, being accurate from what we think we know about the roman military 2000 years ago, that's another thing... But you proved you know it all bro Smile

Exactly!

scalawag

scalawag
And the 'inaccuracy' so hotly debated here is an accessory that you could quite happily leave off the damn doll if you want to because you think it is not authentic.
I do collect some modern military figures too, and yes they sometimes have inaccuracies in gear and equipment, but if that's the case and I can't just live with it then I source a new more accurate part where one is available or leave it off if its an extra as in this case clearly it is.  I don't think I have ever bought a figure I thought was 100% how it should be (according to me) out of the box and I doubt I ever will.  They are sold as 'collectables' not reference pieces.

Manufacturers claim that their figures are something they are not sometimes out of their own ignorance, and sometimes knowing that some collectors simply won't know they are inaccurate and others won't care so much, and so they will still make sales regardless.
The prices of figures in my opinion have more to do with the profit margins than they are a reflection of the accuracy.
 
I doubt that many manufacturers read forums like this one, and so arguments here are not likely to change their mind.  If you feel that strongly about it I would suggest writing to the manufacturers directly with your concerns.

I am really sure that this does not deserve this level of debate on a forum like this.  

If you have stated your view and someone disagrees with it they are not disrespecting your beliefs.  They are simply choosing to believe something else.  Just leave it at that and move on for goodness sake.  
If they choose not to believe you and you are 'right' then that is their loss surely.  
If you continue to argue and try to change their mind then you stand a good chance of coming off looking like the bad guy to the observer and thats then your loss.  

In the past I used to argue my points a lot more than I do these days, but at some point I realised I was looking like a complete dick to other people when I did it, that I rarely achieved the goal of changing others minds or making them accept that I was 'right' and that it puts off others from ever contributing things, things which I might actually learn from, as they are too scared to bring them up.

If someone doesn't  agree with you or believe what you say it's no real biggy, just let them believe something else.

Paul


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lurpdog101

lurpdog101
Well said @Scalawag

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Stryker2011

Stryker2011
Founding Father
Well said, Paul.


_________________
Mark

He who dies with the most toys wins!

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