Is a rotting grail still a grail?

hi folks, lately i havent been active with 1/6 rather than 1/12 scale figures, but recent gaming got me in the mood again.

that being said, it seems the older i get, the more impulsive i become, kinda straw fire like when it comes to topics and figures.
with one consistency, being notoriously late for everything that isnt fallout

ok long story cut short, after being hyped for the terminator franchise i was perusing for said figures. i know they werent cheap to begin with, hence i passed when they were new, but holy smokes they get offered like some sort of investment.

i was initially going for a battle damaged or tech noir arnie t-800 from hot toys as a main antagonist and was prepared for steep prices.
what surprised me though were steep prices for,openly communicated though, "rotting" figures.
jackets falling apart inside the box, lose or broken joints etc.

got me thinking about whats the point in purchasing expensive figures literally watching them desintigrating once unboxed.

sure they are sometimes 10 years almost, but at that price range its just not affordable taking the risk in hopes of getting an "ok" one.

do you have any similar obstacles when it comes to figures high on your collection list or even personal experience with the hot toys figures in question?

it seems for the time being i'll try my luck with a 3d model of a t800 endo, got some decent results with printed skeletons and was going for army building the tin cans anyways.

not something i could ever afford with real figures mind you

kind regards
tjolnir

For me, it's not.... worth it to spend steeply on a 'rotting' grail unless there's a budget fix for it.

Having finally gotten my 3D printer tuned up, am finding myself printing out more diorama bits and pieces for both 1/6, 1/12, and hasbro scale action figures.

Feels more rewarding than getting off the shelf honestly.

However, to each his own, because everyone's circumstances is different, and each person's approach to destress with the hobby is different too.

Were I back in my previous job that pays thrice my current paycheck, I probably still by buying figures without a care, and the 3d printer would still be unassembled and in cold storage.

Yeah - was watching Terminator 1-3 again during holidays and was looking for some figures out of curiosity - crazy prices for nonperfect figures. 
I guess Terminator, Indiany Jones or Alien figures will always in high demand. And if you missed the preorders years ago...

But there is always hope for a rerelease if you can wait a few years I guess...(or a 3rd party company showing up like with Indy now - but those figures need work)

I realise everyone has their preferences, but I would personally rather pay an exorbitant amount of money for a one-of-a-kind custom figure made precisely to my specifications than for an old HT figure that is falling apart. That way, at least I could probably instruct the person doing the commission to use materials that *won't* disintigrate so easily (real leather, etc).

At this stage, I have seen amazing things being done with 3D printing for stuff like armour and accessories that would normally in the past not be available outside of official releases. So, as long as you could get a decent headsulpt and have someone professionally repaint it and/or commission a custom sculpt, I feel like the sky is the limit with rest of it nowadays.

Agree with sky - there are limits to prices when it makes sense to commission your own figure instead with better material. Most important part is the head. 

I understand not everyone has the energy or time for a comission and just want a figure - but I'm not willing to pay astronomical prices for these things (I could see higher asking prices for things like power armors or other really complex things, but not for a "normal"clothed human person)

Yeah...as much as I like ready-made, mass produced 1/6 figures, I sort of see them as more of a 'product'. In contrast, I'm more willing to pay a higher price for a custom made figure since I class it as a work of art.

valentin wrote:

Were I back in my previous job that pays thrice my current paycheck....

A situation which plagues many of us these days, it seems. At the point in our lives when we should be at peak earnings with enough invested to plan for a long and comfortable retirement....

thanks guys for the feedback, it makes passing on these figures much easier, being a spur of the moment thing, i can sometimes be a stubborn buyer, regretting it later down the road.

so far i couldn't make out any quality point nowadays prices to be based on, other than being "rare". makes me wonder whats the reason for the license holder not reissuing the odd figure, surely hot toys doesnt earn anything by ebays scalping prices. or do they really calculate second hand prices being a guideline for new products?

Again, my thanks for the food for thoughts, will be going the 3d print route then no time schedule though, wet weather is keeping me back finishing my other stuff for i cant spray paint anywhere inside

kind regards
Tjolnir

Having seen my fair share of deteriorating pleather/rubber, I don't go for expensive figures anymore that seem prone to "self-destruct" in a few years -- even if I love the character or franchise. Actually, I'm considering before ordering a figure, if I will be able to fix stuff (belts, boots are fine; leather jackets/suits are an absolute no-go), when the time comes. So, most of the new HT Marvel releases are off-limit for me these days. Nothing hurts more than to lose a beloved figure, because the outfit is rotting.

I think everyone here is familiar with my Unholy Grail (Robyn Hood) story by now, but for those who aren’t, here’s the short version.  The figure was sealed and unopened, but within a few hours of opening the box, ALL of the pleather on the figure had started flaking and falling off.  Then the head (my fault) and the body (not my fault) ended up getting ruined.

So my answer to your question is an emphatic “NO, it is NOT”.    I extensively researched and contemplated every fix possible before I realized that if the figure didn’t go, my sanity would.  I chose my sanity.

My only caveat is that if you or someone you know has some experience using a sewing machine and has access to one, you can use the original figure’s clothing, boots, and accessories for patterns with better materials.  Otherwise, it’s just not worth the money or the aggravation.

What I ended up doing is rebuilding the character from the ground up.  Nothing was used from the original Phicen release.  It turned out to be a lot of fun.  Kind of like the transformation you see in the Marvel Universe where a character goes from the comics to the big screen.  It’s her, but it’s a more “practical” version of her that retains a lot of the original design elements.

As a wise person once told me, and I believe it may have even been you Tjolnir, these are just consumer goods, and consumer goods are temporary by nature.  They were never intended to last a lifetime.  Those weren’t the exact words, but I think I got the sentiment right.  I know it made me feel a lot better at the time.

thanks for the reminder and the kind words. just checked my reply, yes it was about my tiger tank falling apart along with a coo model silicon body.

sorry to hear about your experience, but glad at the same time your project worked out fine and gave you enjoyment in the process. your example was the very thing i had in mind asking here in the first place, reading from this figure falling apart once unboxed.
i guess its not avoidable with the fake leather jacket of the hot toys figure either.
personally i neither have the skills nor equipment to fix or even salvage clothing so i'm very dependant on original released stuff.
at the moment i have a gambody t800 model in mind, hopefully i can get it printed in 1/6 (its 1/4 by design) without the tiny joints breaking.
gonna check this out in my next vacation.

final verdict i guess for me is, deterioration is fine when it starts with a new figure over time in your collection, nothing can be preserved forever. but an already "decomposing" product aint worth scalping prices, no matter how rare.
here's hoping for a reissue or better yet affordable army building t-somethings

Ps: oh by the way, i learned an even more important lesson by reflecting. as long as my "wisdom" can be pushed aside by the next :"oh look....shiny" spur of the moment figure, i still have a lot to learn again, my thanks for reminding me.

I don't see the point of getting a commercial product if a custom-made one is a similar price. The custom-made one will always be superior.

shazzdan wrote:I don't see the point of getting a commercial product if a custom made one is a similar price. The custom-made one will always be superior.

Yep. This.

Yeah like others have said, if it's rotting, I'd say save your money. You can invest on a custom or wait a few years until they do a reissue or a third party comes along and does one. The only one benefiting would be the seller.

Tjolnir wrote:hi folks, lately i havent been active with 1/6 rather than 1/12 scale figures, but recent gaming got me in the mood again.

that being said, it seems the older i get, the more impulsive i become, kinda straw fire like when it comes to topics and figures.
with one consistency, being notoriously late for everything that isnt fallout

ok long story cut short, after being hyped for the terminator franchise i was perusing for said figures. i know they werent cheap to begin with, hence i passed when they were new, but holy smokes they get offered like some sort of investment.

i was initially going for a battle damaged or tech noir arnie t-800 from hot toys as a main antagonist and was prepared for steep prices.
what surprised me though were steep prices for,openly communicated though, "rotting" figures.
jackets falling apart inside the box, lose or broken joints etc.

got me thinking about whats the point in purchasing expensive figures literally watching them desintigrating once unboxed.

sure they are sometimes 10 years almost, but at that price range its just not affordable taking the risk in hopes of getting an "ok" one.

do you have any similar obstacles when it comes to figures high on your collection list or even personal experience with the hot toys figures in question?

it seems for the time being i'll try my luck with a 3d model of a t800 endo, got some decent results with printed skeletons and was going for army building the tin cans anyways.

not something i could ever afford with real figures mind you

kind regards
tjolnir

Frankly, the folks asking outrageous prices for stuff they didn’t properly care for is absolute BS. Honestly, I’d be embarrassed to ask for even half the original cost I paid for something that’s falling apart. But, as long as there are people out there willing to pay it, it’s not entirely the seller’s fault. Personally, I view these figures like a new car — once I take it off the lot, rule of thumb is, it’s already lost half its value. Therefore, once I open the box, take it out, mess with it, and put it on display, I shouldn’t be a greedy a-hole and ask for double, triple, +++, the original value; it’s disingenuous and downright greedy.

As He Who Shall Remain Nameless pointed out to me just yesterday: 1. People still don’t acknowledge that environmental conditions these items are kept in (sealed or not) can and will affect the pleather/leather/rubber deterioration. He recently opened a 20 year old BBI/CY Girl set that has yet to fall apart. So, what’s the difference aside from the quality of the pleather/rubber? 2. In his opinion not all customs are superior to commercially made and available offerings. (Upon reflection, I do have to agree; as I’ve seen some pretty overrated custom figures, and some truly great ones.

I do agree about the quality of the materials used being the most important thing when it comes to a figure's longevity. I guess my feeling though is that at least if you are commissioning something from an artist, you can *specify* what types of fabrics or leathers you want. Whereas, there is less control over what goes into factory made figures. You just have to trust that they are using quality materials, which isn't always the case.

Stryker2011 wrote:
As He Who Shall Remain Nameless pointed out to me just yesterday: 1. People still don’t acknowledge that environmental conditions these items are kept in (sealed or not) can and will affect the pleather/leather/rubber deterioration. He recently opened a 20 year old BBI/CY Girl set that has yet to fall apart. So, what’s the difference aside from the quality of the pleather/rubber? 2.

…and when you’re purchasing a figure second hand, you have no way of knowing how the figures are stored or cared for. You have to take the seller at their word. Needless to say, I won’t be buying any more older figures on eBay or yahoo! Japan.

This reminds me of when I used to do silly descriptions every once in awhile on figures I was selling on eBay to satire all of the cliches. “Stored in an unconditioned attic at my home in Florida. Multiple cat household full of pet hair and dander. Smoke free home outside of an occasional stogie while opening figures.”

Stryker2011 wrote:2. In his opinion not all customs are superior to commercially made and available offerings. (Upon reflection, I do have to agree; as I’ve seen some pretty overrated custom figures, and some truly great ones.

When I talked about custom figures, I meant the ones that I do personally, which are always superior to a commercial product. If I could get a commercial product as good as what I could do, I wouldn't waste my time working on a custom version.

Right -- a 'custom' can be a lot of different things, such as one's own personal kitbash with some customisation, a figure made entirely from scratch, an ooak figure commissioned from a professional custom artist, a custom figure of unkown make or origins a random person is selling on ebay, or a group project (which is more like a small run of a group-funded figure), and so on. I think when we're talking about potential 'value' of a custom figure, it's not always about monetary value, but what it means to you. Sometimes, as you say, a custom can also be objectively better quality and far more valuable than an offical figure. And even better when it's something you customised yourself, then it has even more personal meaning.  

All of this is rather subjective, so it's not easy to directly compare to collectible official figures, but I do still stand by my opinion that I don't see it being worth it to purchase an official figure that has tripled in price but is falling apart, when I could invest that money in something more unique (whether made by myself or someone I trust to do a good job).

Tjolnir wrote:thanks guys for the feedback, it makes passing on these figures much easier, being a spur of the moment thing, i can sometimes be a stubborn buyer, regretting it later down the road.

so far i couldn't make out any quality point nowadays prices to be based on, other than being "rare". makes me wonder whats the reason for the license holder not reissuing the odd figure, surely hot toys doesnt earn anything by ebays scalping prices. or do they really calculate second hand prices being a guideline for new products?

Again, my thanks for the food for thoughts, will be going the 3d print route then no time schedule though, wet weather is keeping me back finishing my other stuff for i cant spray paint anywhere inside

kind regards
Tjolnir

Reading this topic got me thinking about the first Hot Toys figure I procured, the MMS293 Batman Returns figure, which itself has become somewhat of a grail (if current second-hand prices are to gauge that metric) and that I ordered because I missed out on the original DX series Batman from the 1989 movie and refused to pay his mark up price (which has hit the stratosphere since!) Both of these figures contain the “bat suit” which is made out of a rubbery-like substance that I can only assume will deteriorate at some point in the future. It makes one wonder how these will hold up over time of not properly maintained, and how that will determine the price (if it is deteriorated). That’s a great point in that it’s not much of a grail if its falling apart.

Secondly, mentioning 3d printing, I REALLY need to stop being lazy and get my printer dialed back in… it’s been well over year since it’s just sat on my desk. I’d love to start printing diorama pieces or ever weapons as I know there are plenty of files on thingiverse that could at least be scaled down properly.

Tjolnir wrote: makes me wonder whats the reason for the license holder not reissuing the odd figure, surely hot toys doesnt earn anything by ebays scalping prices.

I think hot toys will reissue if they see that there is a demand for a figure, but I presume a lot of it also depends if they still have the licensing for the property. Like the Iron Mans are presumably much easier to reissue cause they've had a good licensing agreement over the years with Marvel, whereas something like DC has been on and off, but we are seeing some Dark Knight figures reissued recently so maybe they renewed that license for those movies. The terminators and Aliens I would suspect have had like shorter windows and would need to be renewed before they did any reissues. Since there hasn't been anything new movies or new hype, I guess it wouldn't be worth it at the moment.