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Malta Knights Hospitaller and Lion Knights Templar by FIRE PHOENIX (updated)

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GubernatorFan

GubernatorFan
Founding Father
Part I

Part II (additional images and information) in Post 14.

Medieval - Malta Knights Hospitaller and Lion Knights Templar by FIRE PHOENIX (updated) Fpk0110

Introduction
The new company Fire Phoenix announced several products simultaneously not too long ago, including four medieval-ish knights. The first two were "St John's Knights Hospitaller" (FP001) and "Teutonic Dragon Knights" (FP002) (here), the second two were the subjects of this review, "Malta Knights Hospitaller" (FP002) and "Lion Knights Templars" (FP003) (here). The figures looked a good, had interesting head sculpts, and while not terribly loaded with accessories, constituted relatively inexpensive options for what could be small-scale army building. I was eventually tempted to purchase a couple of the sets, and they arrived yesterday. To get one thing out of the way -- historical accuracy in these sets is limited. The ones I chose were based on having less in common with sets from other companies that I already owned. The lion (of Judah) was a Templar symbol, but it does not seem to have featured heavily on the uniforms of Templar Knights. The Maltese cross (which we see here) was a Hospitaller symbol, but it is generally agreed to have become common after the beginning of the 16th century, and so would be more commonly seen on later, plate-armored knights. That said, reconstructions of earlier Hospitallers do often use the Maltese cross even for earlier uniforms, so perhaps we cannot blame Fire Phoenix for following them. The rectangular heraldic-crest-bearing pieces strapped over the upper arms, however, appear to be pure fantasy. That is why I am referring to these figures as "medieval-ish." Nonetheless, they capture the essence of medieval knights fairly effectively and can certainly be customized into something more historically accurate. For simplicity, I will be referring to the two figures as the Maltese and Lion knights.

Medieval - Malta Knights Hospitaller and Lion Knights Templar by FIRE PHOENIX (updated) Fpk0210

Packaging - 4/4 stars
The sets arrive in relatively large but not very deep boxes (with their own personalized cardboard shippers), featuring the product name, heraldic crest, and photograph on the sides. Inside is a single black foam trey (with its own thin foam cover), within which you can find the figure and its accessories. Apart from a couple of disk-shaped pieces of tape holding the box shut, everything is collector-friendly and safe. I have said it before, but I will say it again -- foam is just friendlier than plastic.

Medieval - Malta Knights Hospitaller and Lion Knights Templar by FIRE PHOENIX (updated) Fpk0310

Sculpting - 4/4 stars
Is the detail on the two head sculpts and accessories as sharp as it might have been in the hands of, say, Hot Toys? Probably not. But for a brand new company producing sets at markedly lower prices, the product has excellent quality. The detail is good and sharp. There are no obvious mistakes or leftover mold lines. The sculpts are realistic, and slightly animated -- the Lion Knight with a bit of a smirk and the Maltese Knight with a bit of a scowl. The detail on the accessories, both cast metal and plastic alike, is likewise very good. The figures are tall, standing about 30.5 cm (12 in) without the helmets on.

Medieval - Malta Knights Hospitaller and Lion Knights Templar by FIRE PHOENIX (updated) Fpk0410

Paint - 4/4 stars
Again, there have been more subtle and detailed paint applications here and there in our hobby, but the application here was once again of excellent quality, clean and precise. The eyes are glossy, the hair exhibits some variation, you can even make out individual eyebrows, although they remain realistic. I suppose if one feels the need for it, one can weather the accessories more or dirty up the faces.

Medieval - Malta Knights Hospitaller and Lion Knights Templar by FIRE PHOENIX (updated) Fpk0510

Articulation - 3.5/4 stars
Looking at parted out sets on eBay, it looks like Fire Phoenix uses neck-less CooModel bodies (or something based on them), which are a very decent choice. I wish the head and neck were two separate pieces, but they work ok on the figures. The joints are strong enough to support dynamic poses with accessories like the weapons and shields in the hands. The legs have surprisingly uninhibited articulation, and the figures can sit easily, something rarely the case with armored figures. There is good ankle articulation, although the one-piece long-gloved hands on the Maltese Knight figure impede wrist articulation in that set. The Lion knight has, thankfully, separate armored gloves and vambraces. Despite the several layers of clothing and armor (4 layers on top), for the most part they do not impede the articulation. Something that does get in the way is the heaviness of the cast metal helmets, which make it a little difficult to find a safe, balanced pose for the figures.

Medieval - Malta Knights Hospitaller and Lion Knights Templar by FIRE PHOENIX (updated) Fpk0610

Accessories - 3/4 stars
I suppose this is one area in which the sets are relatively light. We do not put much emphasis on them, but action figure stands are a nice thing to have. If it meant being able to army build at a more reasonable price, I don't mind not having them, but in this particular instance, they would have been very helpful, as the cast metal helmets can easily throw the figure off balance.

Both sets include the one pair of gloved gripping hand that come on the figure, plus two pairs of regular ungloved hands, one of them gripping, the other fists. In practical terms this is ok, but it is far short of an ideal full complement of options. Each set comes with only two weapons: a long sword for both (of slightly different design), a horseman's pick for the Maltese Knight, and a ball-and-chain flail for the Lion Knight. Incidentally, there are arguments that ball-and-chain flails, so ingrained in popular culture perceptions of medieval warfare, are the invention of later imagination, and that surviving exemplars were made later. Now this is a lot better than just one weapon for each, but the complement of medieval weapons for knights would have suggested a spear and perhaps a standard, not to mention a short dagger. Each set also includes a shield, nicely done, featuring the heraldic device on a somewhat odd cloth cover permanently attached to the shield surface. The inside of the shield has three straps: one to hang the shield over the neck and shoulder, another to fit around the elbow, and a third to hold in the hand.

Some collectors have complained of overly soft hand sculpts, although in my experience that is not usually an issue. On the other hand, as here, the hands could be made of overly hard plastic, making the placement of the weapons in them a bit of a pain. The cast metal helmets are very nicely done, although this method places some limitation on the quality of detail, and results in putting the heaviest accessory at the top of the figure's center of gravity, something that, as already noted, is not very helpful. I just learned that, while it is advertised as a good thing, casting metal pieces is a cost saving measure (thanks, Ghost808). Always preferred plastic, for balance reasons. In terms of size, although they fit over fully realized head sculpts (with ears and hair), they do not look excessively large -- perhaps in part because the figures bulk up with the several layers of clothing/armor.

Medieval - Malta Knights Hospitaller and Lion Knights Templar by FIRE PHOENIX (updated) Fpk0710

Outfit - 4/4 stars
The soft goods that come with Fire Phoenix's knights represent cloth, leather, and (chain) mail alike. Generally speaking, the these elements are excellent. Each knight comes with pants, a shirt or thin tunic (black for the Lion Knight, white for the Maltese Knight), a padded tunic (gambeson?, blue for the Lion Knight, milk white for the Maltese Knight), (chain) mail (hooded for the Lion Knight, with separate mail hood, coif, for the Maltese Knight), and a surcoat with the appropriate heraldic crest on it (blue for the Lion Knight, red for the Maltese Knight). The separate fabric (chain) mail coif of the Maltese Knight sometimes looks off, as it lacks the heaviness of real metal to drape over the shoulders. This is easily fixed if you tuck it under the surcoat, as would have been more typically worn. I left it out for the review, since that is how the figure is meant to be displayed by the designer.

Each figure has two belts, one of them to support the long sword and its sheath. This additional belt on the Maltese Knight figure has a hoop for the horseman's pick, while the corresponding belt on the Lion Knight figure has a pouch attached to it. You can suspend the ball-and-chain flail on the belt. The Lion Knight has shoes or short boots on. The Maltese Knight's feet are encased in his fabric (chain) mail chausses, which are given basic soles. This is good for ankle articulation, but makes for a shifty fit, which results in some additional problems trying to balance the figure on its feet. The rectangular heraldic-crest-bearing pieces strapped to the upper arms are, as noted, fantastical, and one wants to make the figures look a little more historically accurate, one can easily remove them.

Finally, both figures come with capes. The cape for the Lion Knight is plain black, and overly narrow and overly long. It might be some sort of fashion statement, but it is neither plausible nor practical. It does have thin wires along the bottom and the lower part of the sides. The cape for the Maltese Knight is also black but with the Maltese cross at both shoulders and a much better design. It has a metal chain closure, wired hood that would make Emperor Palpatine proud, much better cut that allows it to envelop the body if need be, and does not drag on the ground. It also has thin wires to help it assume dynamic wind-swept poses, along the bottom and the sides.

Medieval - Malta Knights Hospitaller and Lion Knights Templar by FIRE PHOENIX (updated) Fpk0810

Fun Factor - 4/4 stars
Especially keeping in mind each of these sets is coming out alongside three others, I suppose there is even more potential fun to be had with them than if they were on their own, or separated by a long lag of time. The good articulation, good execution and quality, and the relatively low cost, are all likely to help making the most of this. The few shortcoming mentioned above are generally easily overcome, especially if one wants to do some basic modification or even just add a stand.

Medieval - Malta Knights Hospitaller and Lion Knights Templar by FIRE PHOENIX (updated) Fpk0910

Value - 3.5/4 stars
Each set retails for $180 or so (probably more on the secondary market), and these days that is quite a deal. To be sure, these do not include a cornucopia of accessories and even lack stands, but they are viable, good quality action figures that work well on their own, better in groups, and -- not least because of the somewhat more reasonable price -- could be employed to army build, at least on a small scale. Note that they are available either individually or as two combo 2-packs (Maltese and Lion, Teutonic and St John). The 2-packs include an additional, if rather fantastical, helmet; they do not cost less than buying individual sets.

Medieval - Malta Knights Hospitaller and Lion Knights Templar by FIRE PHOENIX (updated) Fpk1010

Things to watch out for
Balance -- especially due to the relatively heavy cast-metal helmets perched at the top of the figures' center of gravity. Or give them some stands. Otherwise, expect the occasional tumble and at least some startling noise. Perhaps heat up the hand sculpts a bit before trying to place the handles of the weapons in them. Otherwise, not a thing, at least in my experience.

Medieval - Malta Knights Hospitaller and Lion Knights Templar by FIRE PHOENIX (updated) Fpk1110

Overall - 3.75 stars
This being a new company, I did not know quite what to expect. While some of the sets' limitations (as in number of accessories, etc) were obvious from the promotional materials, they looked good and I wanted to give them a try. Perhaps because I was cautious and did not expect very much, I was actually quite pleasantly surprised. They are a good product, especially given the relatively low price. If you like medieval knights and are not too hung up on historical accuracy, these are a viable option. They also have plenty of potential if you want to improve them. The only inaccuracy I spotted from the promotional images is that the belts on the Maltese Knight are as medium brown as those of the Lion Knight, as opposed to being darker or black.

Medieval - Malta Knights Hospitaller and Lion Knights Templar by FIRE PHOENIX (updated) Fpk1210

Where to buy
I got mine at GianToy for $180 (USD) -- here

You can find them also at:

Big Bad Toy Store (pre-order) -- here
Cotswold Collectibles (pre-order) -- here
Monkey Depot (pre-order, only combo 2-packs) -- here
Timewalker Toys (some are still in pre-order, others in stock) -- here

Or look around elsewhere on the web, including eBay.

Medieval - Malta Knights Hospitaller and Lion Knights Templar by FIRE PHOENIX (updated) Fpk1310

I hope this was useful. As always, what do you think?

Part II (additional images and information) in Post 14.

#medieval #knights #templar #hospitaller #firephoenix #fantasy #male #crusader


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shovelchop81

shovelchop81
Mixed feelings about these, are they 1/6 or the new fangled confusing 1/12 figures? I ask as they have the look either of a modern 1/12 or a really old school 1/6. If you're army building and want put a bit of work into them (weathering, correcting any historical accuracy problems like 'The Witcher's' sword Wink etc..) and they are cheap you can't go wrong but not as centre pieces in a modern 1/6 collection of historical figures. Great review, that's just a flail BTW GTF, a rally nice looking one but not Bolas! Smile

davidd

davidd
Outstanding review: extremely detailed descriptions, with excellent, clear photographs and nothing superfluous or unnecessary. I wish more product reviews could be this clear and straightforward.

Valiarde

Valiarde
davidd wrote:Outstanding review: extremely detailed descriptions, with excellent, clear photographs and nothing superfluous or unnecessary. I wish more product reviews could be this clear and straightforward.

Agreed.


Here is a pic from pinterest I had in my favourites for quiet some years:

Medieval - Malta Knights Hospitaller and Lion Knights Templar by FIRE PHOENIX (updated) Knight14

So that might be one place were FirePhoenix got their inspiration from. Very Happy  
Despite liking that Knight for so long I did not pull the trigger on him, yet. I bought some parts of the Teutonic knight though.

GF, can you show me more of the black long wired cape? Most capes I have at home are too short for some of my fantasy figures and is the wire good?
Another question is for the heraldic symbols on the arms, are they easy to put in place and stay there? Just curious here.

Smile


_________________
The knight is darkest just before the dawn.

shovelchop81

shovelchop81
Valiarde wrote:
davidd wrote:Outstanding review: extremely detailed descriptions, with excellent, clear photographs and nothing superfluous or unnecessary. I wish more product reviews could be this clear and straightforward.

Agreed.


Here is a pic from pinterest I had in my favourites for quiet some years:

Medieval - Malta Knights Hospitaller and Lion Knights Templar by FIRE PHOENIX (updated) Knight14

So that might be one place were FirePhoenix got their inspiration from. Very Happy  
Despite liking that Knight for so long I did not pull the trigger on him, yet. I bought some parts of the Teutonic knight though.

GF, can you show me more of the black long wired cape? Most capes I have at home are too short for some of my fantasy figures and is the wire good?
Another question is for the heraldic symbols on the arms, are they easy to put in place and stay there? Just curious here.

Smile

Hi! Just curious, were the Order's identifiers on the arms ever a real thing or is this some video game related idea? I have never seen placards like them before on arms except maybe in much later Medieval competitions for the sake of the audience but I think those were just coloured ribbons.

Valiarde

Valiarde
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ailette

Normally they were attached to the chainmail and a bit higher on the shoulders (what I read about it)



Here is the only illustration from the Codex Manesse picturing ailettes:

Medieval - Malta Knights Hospitaller and Lion Knights Templar by FIRE PHOENIX (updated) 330px-Meister_der_Manessischen_Liederhandschrift_001


_________________
The knight is darkest just before the dawn.

skywalkersaga

skywalkersaga
As always, a very thorough and helpful review, GF. I'm not up on the finer details to nitpick, but I do agree with shovelchop that at the very least these could do with a little weathering.

The Malta knight kinda resembles Ben Barnes.... ;p


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"The happy ending of the fairy tale, the myth, and the divine comedy of the soul, is to be read,
not as a contradiction, but as a transcendence of the universal tragedy of man."

Ignoring current 'official' Star Wars content for my own sanity.

shazzdan

shazzdan
Nice review. Thanks for posting this. IMO they are overpriced for what you get. If the price was closer to $120, I would have bought one.


_________________
More of my work can be found at One Sixth Arsenal
https://www.etsy.com/au/shop/OneSixthArsenal

shazzdan

shazzdan
Valiarde wrote:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ailette

Normally they were attached to the chainmail and a bit higher on the shoulders (what I read about it)



Here is the only illustration from the Codex Manesse picturing ailettes:

Medieval - Malta Knights Hospitaller and Lion Knights Templar by FIRE PHOENIX (updated) 330px-Meister_der_Manessischen_Liederhandschrift_001

Ailettes were only a thing for a few decades. Older writers said that they were shoulder armour but there is more than one text saying that they were made from parchment so they wouldn't provide much protection. A more likely purpose for them is to display a heraldic device.


_________________
More of my work can be found at One Sixth Arsenal
https://www.etsy.com/au/shop/OneSixthArsenal

shovelchop81

shovelchop81
Valiarde wrote:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ailette

Normally they were attached to the chainmail and a bit higher on the shoulders (what I read about it)



Here is the only illustration from the Codex Manesse picturing ailettes:

Medieval - Malta Knights Hospitaller and Lion Knights Templar by FIRE PHOENIX (updated) 330px-Meister_der_Manessischen_Liederhandschrift_001

Very interesting, thank you, perhaps they were intended to help distinguish friend from foe at all angles in CQB?

Valiarde

Valiarde
shazzdan wrote:Nice review. Thanks for posting this. IMO they are overpriced for what you get. If the price was closer to $120, I would have bought one.

I think they are a step above the China knights (GF alro reviewed one of them). At least these have proper shields and heads. You don't get many figures for 120 nowadays. Maybe some simple figures like DiCaprio or 007 in a suit.
I'm a fan of the shield: Made of wood and the front has a very nice velvet feel to it.


shovelchop81 wrote:

Very interesting, thank you, perhaps they were intended to help distinguish friend from foe at all angles in CQB?


Many things are possible but I think it is just for the looks. Like that helmet in the picture with its decoration.


_________________
The knight is darkest just before the dawn.

shovelchop81

shovelchop81
Valiarde wrote:
shazzdan wrote:Nice review. Thanks for posting this. IMO they are overpriced for what you get. If the price was closer to $120, I would have bought one.

I think they are a step above the China knights (GF alro reviewed one of them). At least these have proper shields and heads. You don't get many figures for 120 nowadays. Maybe some simple figures like DiCaprio or 007 in a suit.
I'm a fan of the shield: Made of wood and the front has a very nice velvet feel to it.


shovelchop81 wrote:

Very interesting, thank you, perhaps they were intended to help distinguish friend from foe at all angles in CQB?


Many things are possible but I think it is just for the looks. Like that helmet in the picture with its decoration.

I think those bands were often made of twisted colours of their order as identifiers too, thin red on wide white for Templars, thin white on wide black for Teutonics, thin black on wide white for Hospitalers, thin white on wide red for St. John's order.

GubernatorFan

GubernatorFan
Founding Father
Thank you all very much for the comments, I will try to address them in order. Let's see...

shovelchop81 wrote:Mixed feelings about these, are they 1/6 or the new fangled confusing 1/12 figures? I ask as they have the look either of a modern 1/12 or a really old school 1/6. If you're army building and want put a bit of work into them (weathering, correcting any historical accuracy problems like 'The Witcher's' sword  Wink  etc..) and they are cheap you can't go wrong but not as centre pieces in a modern 1/6 collection of historical figures. Great review, that's just a flail BTW GTF, a rally nice looking one but not Bolas! Smile

My feelings are also a bit mixed, but I think it helped that I wasn't expecting much to begin with. I do think they are better than 1:12 scale blown up to twice the size, although I agree they could benefit from a little weathering and modification to make them look more realistic and historically plausible. Actually, the quality of the cast helmets is such that they already look a little bit beat up and used. Glad we cleared up the weapons terminology. Smile

davidd wrote:Outstanding review: extremely detailed descriptions, with excellent, clear photographs and nothing superfluous or unnecessary. I wish more product reviews could be this clear and straightforward.

Thank you very much, I'm glad you liked it. I shall endeavor to keep it up for any future reviews. Smile

Valiarde wrote:Here is a pic from pinterest I had in my favourites for quiet some years:

Medieval - Malta Knights Hospitaller and Lion Knights Templar by FIRE PHOENIX (updated) Knight14

So that might be one place were FirePhoenix got their inspiration from. Very Happy  
Despite liking that Knight for so long I did not pull the trigger on him, yet. I bought some parts of the Teutonic knight though.

GF, can you show me more of the black long wired cape? Most capes I have at home are too short for some of my fantasy figures and is the wire good?
Another question is for the heraldic symbols on the arms, are they easy to put in place and stay there? Just curious here. Smile

Thank you, I'm glad you liked it. And for the reference picture which probably explains a lot, although they did not replicate it precisely. But yes, it does look like a very likely source of inspiration for them.

The ailettes (thanks for the identification, more on that below) already came strapped in place. They are attached with a little belt that you have to loop through a buckle. They are removable.

Give me a little time, I will take a couple reference photos of the cape and ailettes for you and post them here.

shovelchop81 wrote:Hi! Just curious, were the Order's identifiers on the arms ever a real thing or is this some video game related idea? I have never seen placards like them before on arms except maybe in much later Medieval competitions for the sake of the audience but I think those were just coloured ribbons.

I reviewed contemporary depictions and modern reconstructions of military order equipment, and I found no such components. Looking up ailettes (as identified by Valiarde), turned up that they were in fashion only briefly, between c. 1290 and c. 1325. There were still military orders at that time (despite the fall of Outremer in 1291 and the suppression of the Templars in 1307/1312), but I don't know if they adopted them (and can find no evidence); they, more so than secular knights, might have followed prescriptions and regulations as to what dress, armament, and decorations they wore. So while they are a real thing, they still look out of place -- and, speaking of place, were worn farther up the arm, at the shoulder.

Valiarde wrote:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ailette

Normally they were attached to the chainmail and a bit higher on the shoulders (what I read about it)

Here is the only illustration from the Codex Manesse picturing ailettes:

Medieval - Malta Knights Hospitaller and Lion Knights Templar by FIRE PHOENIX (updated) 330px-Meister_der_Manessischen_Liederhandschrift_001

Thank you, I think this is certainly the ultimate source of inspiration for them. They seem to be missing the pendant parts, but I suppose there may have been different kinds. They are so much not an integral part of armor, that some armor reference books completely ignore them. And as mentioned above, I cannot find them in any medieval depictions or professional reconstructions of military order equipment. If I modify the figures to make them look more historically accurate, I will be removing them. But I'm glad you figured out for us what they are.

skywalkersaga wrote:As always, a very thorough and helpful review, GF. I'm not up on the finer details to nitpick, but I do agree with shovelchop that at the very least these could do with a little weathering. The Malta knight kinda resembles Ben Barnes.... ;p

Thank you very much, I'm glad you liked it. We can definitely give them some weathering and subtractions to improve the look. Had to look up Ben Barnes. Maybe? Smile

shazzdan wrote:Nice review. Thanks for posting this. IMO they are overpriced for what you get. If the price was closer to $120, I would have bought one.

Thank you very much. I don't disagree with you about the price, this and most other things are overpriced. My estimation was relative, not absolute. I cannot really convey that with photos, but the quality is very good, and you are not going to get that for $120 these days -- I think. By comparison (contrast), Kaustic Plastik sets, which have (sometimes debatable) better claims at historical accuracy, sometimes have components fall apart simply by looking at them sideways. Whereas Fire Phoenix's sets didn't fail me or even cause me any concern as I was handling them, and not even when they took a tumble. That is something.

shazzdan wrote:Ailettes were only a thing for a few decades. Older writers said that they were shoulder armour but there is more than one text saying that they were made from parchment so they wouldn't provide much protection. A more likely purpose for them is to display a heraldic device.

Agreed, completely. That seems to be borne out by their employment here, although, as mentioned before, I find no evidence for them used by the military orders. Given the short window of time they were in fashion (c. 1290-c. 1325), perhaps that doesn't mean much, or perhaps it does, as these groups had something closer to uniforms and regulations than secular knights.

Valiarde wrote:I think they are a step above the China knights (GF alro reviewed one of them). At least these have proper shields and heads. You don't get many figures for 120 nowadays. Maybe some simple figures like DiCaprio or 007 in a suit.
I'm a fan of the shield: Made of wood and the front has a very nice velvet feel to it.

shovelchop81 wrote:

Very interesting, thank you, perhaps they were intended to help distinguish friend from foe at all angles in CQB?

Many things are possible but I think it is just for the looks. Like that helmet in the picture with its decoration.

Having reviewed both, I can assure you that these Fire Phoenix sets are several steps above the China Toys knights and hoplites. In pretty much every way. More complete, better quality, more reliable. But yes, you won't get these for $120, unfortunately.

I agree, ailettes appear to have been primarily a decorative element, a place to show off one's heraldic crest.

I like the shields too, although I am a little dubious about their historical plausibility, with the cloth over the "wooden" surface. But I confess that I haven't researched that yet.

shovelchop81 wrote:I think those bands were often made of twisted colours of their order as identifiers too, thin red on wide white for Templars, thin white on wide black for Teutonics, thin black on wide white for Hospitalers, thin white on wide red for St. John's order.

I think I have seen something about the twisted color heraldic devices too. If so, that didn't make it into these sets.


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GubernatorFan

GubernatorFan
Founding Father
Part II -- Extra photos and notes

Partly in response to Valiarde's questions, here are a few extra photos and notes.

The hood on the Lion Knight is part of his (chain) mail tunic. It can be slid back over the head, and it has a partly separated flap covering the lower part of the face. This is not attached on the left side (where it tucks in under the hood), and it can be pulled open from there.

Medieval - Malta Knights Hospitaller and Lion Knights Templar by FIRE PHOENIX (updated) Fpk1410

The eilettes on both figures are attached to the upper arm the same way -- with a buckled belt. It can be undone and they can be removed. It appears difficult to place the eilettes as far up (essentially on the shoulders) as they should be, if they should be there at all. This is because at that spot (over the shoulder and armpit), the belt will probably be too short. But if you want a Crusader knight, you probably don't want eilettes in the first place.

Medieval - Malta Knights Hospitaller and Lion Knights Templar by FIRE PHOENIX (updated) Fpk1510

As mentioned before, the simple black cape that comes with the Lion Knight is outfitted with wire along the bottom and the lower parts of the sides. This is to allow some posing for wind, etc.

Medieval - Malta Knights Hospitaller and Lion Knights Templar by FIRE PHOENIX (updated) Fpk1610

That is fine, but it is also too narrow to envelop the body as a cape ought to be able to do.

Medieval - Malta Knights Hospitaller and Lion Knights Templar by FIRE PHOENIX (updated) Fpk1710

And it is far too long, without being a bridal veil.

Medieval - Malta Knights Hospitaller and Lion Knights Templar by FIRE PHOENIX (updated) Fpk1810

Far, far too long. I measured it. The cape is 34 cm (13.4 in) in length. The figure itself is 30.5 cm (12 in) tall to the top of the head, and 26 cm (10.2 in) tall to the top of the shoulders.

Medieval - Malta Knights Hospitaller and Lion Knights Templar by FIRE PHOENIX (updated) Fpk1910


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shazzdan

shazzdan
GubernatorFan wrote:
Agreed, completely. That seems to be borne out by their employment here, although, as mentioned before, I find no evidence for them used by the military orders. Given the short window of time they were in fashion (c. 1290-c. 1325), perhaps that doesn't mean much, or perhaps it does, as these groups had something closer to uniforms and regulations than secular knights.
They were religious orders and had to wear the same gear as all other monks of the same order. The Templars, for example, had to wear their Cistercian monks robes over their armour even when in battle. That didn't change until 1240 when they were granted dispensation by Gregory IX to wear a surcoat instead. None of these orders would have been allowed to wear ailettes.

Your new set of photos have changed my mind. The price actually seems reasonable.


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GubernatorFan

GubernatorFan
Founding Father
shazzdan wrote:They were religious orders and had to wear the same gear as all other monks of the same order. The Templars, for example, had to wear their Cistercian monks robes over their armour even when in battle. That didn't change until 1240 when they were granted dispensation by Gregory IX to wear a surcoat instead. None of these orders would have been allowed to wear ailettes.

Your new set of photos have changed my mind. The price actually seems reasonable.

Thank you for confirming my suspicions regarding eilettes, or more generally the degree to which members of military orders would get to add on or customize their prescribed apparel (namely, not much).

Glad you like it better, although I don't really have a vested interest here. I think I will be taking off the eilettes, at least, if I display them.


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Valiarde

Valiarde
Thank you for the extra pictures and information.

I see the cape has no hood, so I'm not very interested in it. But thanks anyway for showing it in full length. (I just recently found a nice hooded cape with wire on ebay though)

I do like the look with the ailettes though. But Yeah if you want more realistic knights, you could removes them I guess.



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GubernatorFan

GubernatorFan
Founding Father
Valiarde wrote:Thank you for the extra pictures and information.

I see the cape has no hood, so I'm not very interested in it. But thanks anyway for showing it in full length. (I just recently found a nice hooded cape with wire on ebay though)

I do like the look with the ailettes though. But Yeah if you want more realistic knights, you could removes them I guess.

You are very welcome. And you are correct, no hood on that one. The other one, for the Maltese Knight does have a great hood, and is a better cape overall, but it is much shorter -- and more normal.

Given that the Lion Knight doesn't really look like the Templar he is supposedly supposed to be, I suppose leaving him with eilettes might not be implausible, shedding his alleged Templar identity. But in that case I'd try to figure out a way to place the eilettes farther up. Doesn't seem likely using the provided belt. The reference image you provided has them more correctly placed. But if you are doing a fantasy knight anyway, and wanted to use this, I suppose they can stay where they are.


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Stryker2011

Stryker2011
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I have to agree with shazzdan on these. A little disappointing how these look like something Sideshow would have put out 20 years ago.


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Medieval - Malta Knights Hospitaller and Lion Knights Templar by FIRE PHOENIX (updated) C8485110

GubernatorFan

GubernatorFan
Founding Father
Stryker2011 wrote:I have to agree with shazzdan on these. A little disappointing how these look like something Sideshow would have put out 20 years ago.

I'm sorry you are disappointed. I think you guys are reacting to the relative cleanness/simplicity of these sets. And apparently Dan changed his mind a bit, liking it better after Part II. Now I am not disputing this and have no vested interest to defend Fire Phoenix or my purchases from them, but three points:

1. Speaking for myself, I don't mind a clean figure, which lets me weather it/damage it as much as I want.

2. Good or bad, I think the sets turned out faithful to their promotional images (like I mentioned, the one discrepancy I spotted was the color of the Maltese Knight's belts). So at least there wasn't much of a bait and switch going on.

3. I think the above statement is a bit of a hyperbole. Except in price, I'm pretty sure this is a palpable improvement -- in size, sculpt, and paint -- over Sideshow's figures from 20 years ago. Admittedly, I did not find one from 2001 in my collection, but here is one from 2008, compared to the Maltese Knight. Just the heads -- I put the boxes away and stuck the latter's head on a WIP Roman with mostly CooModel and HY parts. As to whether it is enough of an improvement, that may be another question.

Medieval - Malta Knights Hospitaller and Lion Knights Templar by FIRE PHOENIX (updated) Prajim11

(these were photographed simultaneously side-by-side, but digitally brought closer together for easier comparison)


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Stryker2011

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I stand corrected. While the heads aren’t all that bad, the outfits are a bit… over-sized. I don’t necessarily mind “clean” either, since most weathering often comes across heavy-handed when not done well, but I think the cut of the outfits could be better fitted.


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Medieval - Malta Knights Hospitaller and Lion Knights Templar by FIRE PHOENIX (updated) C8485110

GubernatorFan

GubernatorFan
Founding Father
Stryker2011 wrote:I stand corrected. While the heads aren’t all that bad, the outfits are a bit… over-sized. I don’t necessarily mind “clean” either, since most weathering often comes across heavy-handed when not done well, but I think the cut of the outfits could be better fitted.

There is truth to that, although given how many layers of clothing and (chain) mail there are, I'm actually impressed they are not more bulky. But the cape on the Lion Knight and the mail coif on the Maltese Knight do stand out as being less than ideally tailored or designed.


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shazzdan

shazzdan
Stryker2011 wrote:I don’t necessarily mind “clean” either, since most weathering often comes across heavy-handed when not done well...
Me too. If I need weathering, I'll do it myself.


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skywalkersaga

skywalkersaga
Wonder if the 'oversized' feel of the outfits would change if swapped to a somewhat larger (taller?) body? Or would they not fit on a bigger body?


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GubernatorFan

GubernatorFan
Founding Father
skywalkersaga wrote:Wonder if the 'oversized' feel of the outfits would change if swapped to a somewhat larger (taller?) body? Or would they not fit on a bigger body?

That is a good question, but I honestly don't know. When I looked for what the body might be (I didn't want to mess with undressing the figures), I found it parted out on eBay and it was either a neck-less CooModel body or a copy of it. That is a decent medium body -- not slender and not super bulky. It occurs to me that one reason the helmets do not appear far too large (while still large enough to fit over reasonably sized and fully realized heads), is because the layers of clothing and armor bulk up the body.


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