Have or do you share your 1/6 hobby with friends and family?

It's not much but I'll start.

Ever since I've expressed interest in dolls & 1/6 figures my girlfriend has been pretty supportive even though she fully doesn't understand the appeal. She takes interest in areas such as sewing and clothing for figures I have bought and has helped me learn to create clothing as well, which I plan to get better at because I'm currently terrible at it lol. She is uncomfortable with the price tag that can come along with the more expensive figures and has told me as long as I save for the things I really want and just don't tell her how much they are she's okay with it. Like, she can't justify the price tags because she doesn't understand the value herself but she knows I'm really into the hobby so it's okay. Eventually, I would like to introduce my hobby to my son who is currently 4 if he shows some interest but currently his priorities are more focused on video games and toy cars. If he's never interested in my hobby I'm totally okay with that too. I'd like to expand with who I share my interests within my personal life and it's something I'm slowly working at.

I must admit at first I was hesitant to share this specific hobby to my friends as I didn’t want them to tease me (after all my wife continues to call these 1/6th figures my “dolls” which I guess technically she’s right! ) but over the short time since I started I’ve opened up more to them about it, and they seem to be supportive. They even thought it was cool when I explained that the look of these can be easily changed out with the swapping of head sculpts and clothing. I actually just mentioned me going relatively deep in this hobby to a female co-worker yesterday and she didn’t give me any weird looks or comments (but she did say her dad is also a collector of Pop figures so at least she has some kind of bearing to someone and their collection.)

As far as my wife, I’d say she is kind of batting the eye the other way as she doesn’t fully understand the hobby herself. She knows I’m a pretty devoted collector, so she knows there will be monies spent and that’s most likely where her hesitation comes when I pick up any new hobby. She’s already told me “no more figures” (even though I just picked up a new one this week!) and said I “better not have a dresser/closet full of clothes for these figures” (in the end) because she knows me too well! I’d say it’s more of me picking my battles at this point! Hahaha

My friends were (mildly) amused; my family (usually) quite hostile.

I also want to add...

I think it's easier for outsiders to understand the hobby if your collecting/crafting both male and female movie or military figures. If your someone like me who prefers female figures over males and who also is into the fashion and clothes/dress-up areas of the hobby then it can be viewed more critically as it is a more feminine (assuming your male) aspect of the hobby. I feel the people who have the potential to be judged the most are people who like to display female figures in pinup or nude manners, which I personally have nothing against, and welcome all ranges to the hobby. It's often considered taboo or feminine for men to play with doll-like toys so it really depends on who you're talking to and what that person is familiar with.

At the end of the day, I just enjoy looking at the detail and craft that goes into these figures, and appreciate that they are small enough to put on display in a variety of manners.

Interesting question, suchsneak!

Thankfully, my husband is fairly tolerant of my 'doll-ing' as he jokingly calls it (I don't mind, because when I first started out I *was* trying to make dolls, prior to switching to 1/6 scale action figures). It helps that he's also an avid SW fan and therefore understands why I want to make the SW figures, at least. He likes to see my finished pieces, though I think he's often disappointed I won't let him touch them, lol. (Hence why I gifted him a custom tbleague figure a while back, so he'd have one of his very own to play with. ;D ) He doesn't have interest in learning how to do 1/6 stuff himself as he has his own thing (video games, music, and sports).

Other people... it really just depends. I live quite far away from my immediate family, so they only know what I tell them and only see the images I choose to share. While they are nice about it, I don't think they really understand why I do it and probably think it's a complete silly waste of time and money (which, ok, fair enough, lol). But then, I have lived a very different lifestyle to them for a long time now, so it's nothing new.

Closer to home, I showed one of my in-laws one of my custom SW figures, and while she was impressed with the realism, she was baffled as to why I would choose to work on something that cost so much to put together, and said 'why don't you just make Monster High dolls?'.  So methinks she didn't quite get it either. ;P

Aside from my husband and the actual 1/6 scale community itself, the people who seem most interested in and accepting of my hobby are my online fandom friends. Many of them are either fanfiction writers, fan artists, or cosplayers, so they completely understand spending inordinate amounts of time on re-creating fictional characters and stories for one's own amusement. ;D

My parents are ... okay with it, I guess. And my wife thinks the cost is ridiculous, but also thinks the realism is cool. She’s not adverse to my collection, and often likes to see what new items come in. She definitely can appreciate it, and doesn’t begrudge me my hobby, but she has referred to them as “over-priced Barbies” just to tease me. But, she is very supportive; most others think it’s a waste of money (though not many have actually seen them outside of in-laws). I don’t have any “real life” friends left (they’ve all passed), so I don’t have that issue.

Let's start from the house, my mother has always been supportive of our (brother and I's) creative endeavors, she also finds it interesting, specially when I make custom stuff, I always show her my figures first, my brother is the same. My father on the other hand thinks it's childish and a waste of money, specially if I'm putting money in and not getting anything in return. ‍�

As for friends, it's a mixed bag, some think it's cool, others think it's lame.

That's an interesting topic! Love to read about your experiences.

I started collecting in 2017 when I already moved 2h away from my home most of my closest friends and family. My girlfriend and I do visit our families and friends more often then they are visiting us here, so most of them haven't even seen my growing collection, some of my friends know a few pieces though.
One of them became a fan himself and got some (few) figures for his man cave (or better: nintendo game cave)  
Most of my other friends don't really care for the figures. One of them thinks it is so fitting for me as I always did the artsy handcrafting or photography things. He calls our figure/photography room the "creativity loft"  

I know my parents aren't into these things at all. They don't even watch or read anything "fantastical" - only biographys, historical movies/drama or sports. Very reality based people. Since my girflriend told them about my hobby, I had to show them some pics. They are always supporting though and would never say bad things - but I could see they think the figures are a bit...childish in their eyes but my dad loved some of the dioramas He is a painter and was happy to give me some tips for tools.

My girlfriend would never buy figures but is interested in my pics I do with them or my diorama work. So pretty neutral. And she calls them dolls too    

Oh and I found some new friends in this hobby (Ovy and Illusion for example ) so yeah, a net positive for me lol.

This is a great topic to discuss here in the forum. I can relate to many points from the previous replies.

I started this hobby by accident, in 2016. I've been searching for a decent collectible of the old school Lara Croft, a character from one of the games that marked the most my childhood, adolescence and early adulthood. I love the Tomb Raider franchise and I really just wanted one nice figure or statue of Lara. I stumbled upon a custom figure someone made with a Phicen body, first time I knew seamless bodies existed. The figure was just mind-blowing for me, it was amazing, so detailed, exactly what I was looking for. So I started to research more about how to build my version of her. I discovered some stores that sold loose parts, so I bought a S10D body and a bunch of things (clothes, weapons, HS and stuff) to build the figure.
I remember that when the Phicen body arrived, some relatives were here in my home... and yeah, they looked pretty weird to me as I opened the box and there was a naked, big chested "doll". Since it was the first time having a seamless body figure, I was in awe, testing the incredible poseability, feeling the soft skin. it was so cool. I was so happy with that...
... but... my relatives were confused, some even asking "aren't you kinda old to play with doll?" and other boring comments like that. Welp, I'm a bearded guy, was single at the time, so that maaaaay have contributed to the shock.
One thing that lowered a bit the awkwardness is that I like drawing, and I used the argument that it helped me with references. I already had one of those wooden dummies. Still, their first reception wasn't that good.
Of course, after I discovered the Phicen (now TBLeague) boxed figures, the countless possibilities of customizing your own figures, and I saw their Vampirella figure, that's when I officially got sucked into the hobby.
Now, my older brother always ask me if I got a new figure, when he comes to visit. I show him the new additions to my collection, talk a bit about the figures and why I got it. Not his thing, but he enjoys seeing and talking about them for a bit. His girlfriend still finds it weird.
As for friends, it's a mixed reaction. Most of them twist their noses, make weird faces... they don't get it much. Truth be told, I am a geek guy and none of my friends are, so it's a topic they can't relate. This is one down side of living in a small town.

And that's how important places like this forum are to some of us. A place to meet, connect and share our creations, interest and experiences about this hobby that tends to not have much acceptance in our close circle. I'm so grateful for finding this forum and being part of it. Thank you all and be happy.

i found that people who are close to you but not into the hobby themselves are usually "tolerating" rather than "supportive"
"real" support would have to be based on sharing the hobby on the same level. not that i'd expect that of someone, even i don't know what theme or topic i'm into at a time so it'd be near impossible for someone else to buy the "right figure" as a gift.

so far i've always been straightforward with the stuff i do for a hobby, but never asked for approval. if someone is uncomfortable with what i do, its on them not me. i work for my money so i spend it on things i enjoy. whether other people see a value in it, isn't a factor for me.
that being said, the best critics are, and most honest criticism i get from, friends who take my dioramas for what they are in terms of craftsmanship, for they see them figures as toys with no monetary value.
sometimes i "regret" buying stuff that's standing around collecting dust once the project is finished, but then i tell myself a painter isn't looking at the same finished picture over and over again after it's done. it's the journey, not the destination.
but as long as all bills are payed there shouldn't be a reason justifying one's expenses to others.

all in all I personally find this a particular difficult hobby to share, for i take a very egoistical approach to what i'm building or trying to display. i think i wouldn't want anyone "mess" with what I envisioned in my mind, thus being a very bad partner to work with on a common project.

so in summary, my wife is fine with my hobby tolerating it, as she has a thing for decoration thingies i can't get my head around, but tolerate it as well and am happy she's got a thing she enjoys, parents are indifferent at best but that's totally normal, co-workers tend to be a really good source of honest, down to earth criticism (the old boss man cheerfully called my dragon figures "nazi barbies" but was praising the details and effort that went into the project) and my best buddy tends to tease me with friendly banter but is brutally honest in a helpful way. sometimes i call upon his "voice of reason" when making unnecessary purchases, even by my definition

skywalkersaga wrote:... and said 'why don't you just make Monster High dolls?'

Ah, Monster High! My "gateway" in to this peculiar hobby! I had an interest in photographing smaller collectable and action figures prior to that, but Monster High was my conduit in to 1/6 figures. I sometimes wish I had stayed with Monster High, as the "enjoyment factor" of the TBLeague etc. type figures doesn't necessarily equate to the higher cost.

As for sharing the hobby In Real Life... no. Only through forums. Of course my wife knows, and as Tjolnir accurately expresses, she is "tolerant." I guess she figures it's better than having several junk "project cars" sitting in the yard or something.

Having worked in education for many years, I definitely kept my hobby interests to myself. A grown man "playing with dolls" still has a significant stigma to it, and it wouldn't take much for somebody to decide "freak" and make all kinds of assumptions. A few friends kind of know about it, but it's not something I discuss with anyone I know in the real world. I find it easier and simpler, and more interesting, to keep discussion of my action figure (aka doll) interests online.

davidd wrote: I guess she figures it's better than having several junk "project cars" sitting in the yard or something.

same goes for video games i asked the question once : "what do you prefer ? me sitting one room upstairs, letting off some steam verbally and having a good time, or strolling through bars and coming home absolutely hammered early in the morning ?"

not that i´d be into that bar-scene, far from it actually, getting drunk amongst strangers is a good way to attract trouble, still there´s a socially accepted way a "real guy" can act out because generations before did so.

of course my wife chose wisely for option a) and while she´s unable to see entertainment value in playing hours on end, it´s far better than what "others do for fun".

as for the topic of action figures / collectibles / dolls, whatever you want to call it:

it´s all about your social environment and whether it´s accepted by or even participated by a majority.
if that applies you´re fine to go, if not, get ready for some tedious arguments.

sadly "toys" tend to have an upper age restriction in public, ironically it´s the adult collectors that make companies like hot toys and other upper price range products even possible.

So interesting reading about everyone's diverse experiences, and yes, great question! I used to not really share, but in the past several years I've shown some of my work through pics to some relatives and friends. In fact, I'll sometimes direct them to this site, or to OSW and the other boards. Generally my immediate family is very supportive, even quite proud (my mom says I should "go professional", to which I laugh quite heartily). My partner has always viewed it with a great deal of puzzlement and bemusement, although she is quite proud of showing it off whenever guests come to our house and she takes them to visit my "museum" in the basement. Although she gets a kick out of the final results, she cannot understand how I can "enjoy" something that is so much hard work and often is accompanied by much moaning and cursing while I do it (this happens for the RC and scale modeling too)! But she has never once complained or mentioned the cost; in fact, there were a few times she encouraged me to get something I was hesitant to buy because of the expense. ("You'd better get it or you'll regret it when it sells out!")

What I find interesting about others' stories is how the men sometimes seem to deal with judgment from others about "playing with dolls" or doing something not deemed "manly" enough. I come from the opposite direction! My first love will always be military history (WWII in particular), and I've been that way since forever. I do get odd looks when I go on and on about this tank or that warbird, and how cool this uniform or that kit looks (especially if it's WWII German, you know, "Nat-si"), but I'm so over that now. I'm of a certain age now where I couldn't care less what others think.

Sometimes, it has its perks being a woman into these things, like when I got special access to certain privileges while visiting Bovington tank museum, because the museum people were so tickled to have this super enthusiastic American woman gushing over their tanks!

TGF: I don’t think your mom is wrong in her assessment that you should (or maybe I should say “could”) “go pro”. Your level of scholarship and craftsmanship, from your tanks, to your figures is museum quality, as are several others on this board, that it wouldn’t surprise me if you showed this stuff to any museum, or school, would be interested in some of your projects.

And I’m with you on the “I’m at a certain age” remark — I’m well past the age where my wife says I’m turning into “that old curmudgeonly guy” where I honestly don’t give 2 f@#$s what anyone thinks, and thankfully she’s like your partner in that she often encourages me to get something if she senses my enthusiasm for it.

It is indeed really fascinating to read through these stories and see how everyone's RL interacts with the hobby differently. Agree with Stryker that tankgirlfuzzy's work is museum quality! Sometimes that attention to detail/OCD pays off. ;D

I have to admit my wife is extremely supportive of my hobby, and she often comes back from shopping with small items for me to use. Okay, not all of them are great, but she has found some real gems, like my 1/6 scale motorbikes .
I guess it stems from that fact that she collects Barbies, though they have never been opened, their all still sealed. She does take an interest in my collection, but calls my female phicen's tarts, very much like Strykers other half it's in a playful manner.
My Father in law never saw the point when I first started out, but since the introduction of the phicens he is hooked!
My son (who is now 21) takes a huge interest in the diorama's I build and the collection as a whole, but unlike me who collects 1/6, he collects the 3 3/4" Joes.

Stryker2011 wrote:TGF: I don’t think your mom is wrong in her assessment that you should (or maybe I should say “could”) “go pro”. Your level of scholarship and craftsmanship, from your tanks, to your figures is museum quality, as are several others on this board, that it wouldn’t surprise me if you showed this stuff to any museum, or school, would be interested in some of your projects.

And I’m with you on the “I’m at a certain age” remark — I’m well past the age where my wife says I’m turning into “that old curmudgeonly guy” where I honestly don’t give 2 f@#$s what anyone thinks, and thankfully she’s like your partner in that she often encourages me to get something if she senses my enthusiasm for it.

skywalkersaga wrote:It is indeed really fascinating to read through these stories and see how everyone's RL interacts with the hobby differently. Agree with Stryker that tankgirlfuzzy's work is museum quality! Sometimes that attention to detail/OCD pays off. ;D

Stryker and skywalkersaga, your words are much too kind, but greatly appreciated. You two and a handful of others on this forum (maybe about 8-15?) have been very supportive and enthusiastic about my work (speaking of showing this hobby to friends and family), for which I am humbled and grateful. What makes me doubt myself is the vast "silent majority" out there that cares not a whit to comment on the threads I've put out, despite the thousands of views those threads have generated. I guess my subject matter is just not compelling to most people here; this hobby has really changed these past several years and it shows with the interest my threads generate. That's why I'm under no illusion about going "pro" or showing stuff to a museum for display--there are clearly far more skilled and talented people out there (remember those Italians on OSW; or people like Tony Barton; or armourguy of East Coast Armoury?) I read a lot of modeling pubs and there is no way I could compete. 

But, I still really appreciate your compliments!   

tankgirlfuzzy -- you are most welcome!  And sorry that you feel disheartened by the seeming lack of interaction with your posts. I'm guessing there are far more people who only view the forum (and likewise youtube videos) than who actually take the time to comment in general, so perhaps it is not neccessarily to do with a lack of interest in your work, specifically. I find that unfortunately the forum/messageboard format has become too 'complicated' for many people these days, who would rather just scroll through social media feeds and leave 'likes' instead.  Also, the forum seems to have experienced an upsurge in membership and activity lately, which is great, but it does have the effect of spreading attention and comments a bit thin. Glad you are still sharing your work here regardless, and please know that it's immensely appreciated.

Agree really interesting reads and a great move of digging up the 'first figure' thread alongside it.

How cruel of you, sky, that your husband can't touch the figures! xD

Haha, and tank girl, I am writing on a reply to your new Aizu soldiers for several days now. You steamrollblitzkrieged us with multiple figures, texts and WIPs, it's much harder to process than single figures, but more on that in that reply.


Well I only had positive experiences with the hobby and other people yet. Family likes it, my brother's kids (preschoolers) are even allowed to play and customize certain figures. My niece is quite talented and experimented with my spare clothing box. Like, her Queen Elsa Of Frozen outfitted with a gas mask and a resident evil Alice coat etc.
They know which figures to leave alone. They can play with the three PVC dogs, but not the resin one etc.

I think all my friends who know it like my stuff and some know the stories/universe I am creating for the figures and sometimes discuss it and share ideas. But then again we are mostly retarded millenials who will never grow up anyway. The girls love my lamb haired tbleague Keanu the most, haha.  Facepool expression heads are alwas amazing people who see them, as they look the most real to them.
With my multiple types of made up nations/people/tribes I guess there is always something for everyone, might be different when someone is only collecting a special area of interest.

Regarding strangers, well I had two of my custom figures as guests in an illustration exhibition last year and a little booklet with photos of some. There was quite some interest as most have never heard of that stuff before. Even the photos of 'simpler' head sculpts that are far away from Hot Toys quality were taken for real people. People were surprised when they asked for the prices of the pieces, they estimated triple the amount. Kids love to squish tbleauge arms.

skywalkersaga wrote:tankgirlfuzzy -- you are most welcome!  And sorry that you feel disheartened by the seeming lack of interaction with your posts. I'm guessing there are far more people who only view the forum (and likewise youtube videos) than who actually take the time to comment in general, so perhaps it is not neccessarily to do with a lack of interest in your work, specifically. I find that unfortunately the forum/messageboard format has become too 'complicated' for many people these days, who would rather just scroll through social media feeds and leave 'likes' instead.  Also, the forum seems to have experienced an upsurge in membership and activity lately, which is great, but it does have the effect of spreading attention and comments a bit thin. Glad you are still sharing your work here regardless, and please know that it's immensely appreciated.

 

Ovy wrote:
Haha, and tank girl, I am writing on a reply to your new Aizu soldiers for several days now. You steamrollblitzkrieged us with multiple figures, texts and WIPs, it's much harder to process than single figures, but more on that in that reply.

I know, I do tend to overwhelm the "schwerpunkt" with all my forces a bit, don't I ?   I look forward to whatever thoughts you have to offer, they have been always insightful and thought provoking.

Being in the hobby for as long as I have, I've seen &/or experienced all sorts of reactions from friends and family. Most see my interest as an oddity, like an outlet for my nerd/history/military enthusiast side. Some within my family have told me in rather hurtful terms that I could spend my money in better, more constructive ways. My wife has been supportive for the most part, though there have been times when she has been less than enthused of the time I spend in the hobby. I have not shared the hobby with people from work, having always anticipated teasing or outright bullying.

Must confess though that I don't give a flying one for these kind of reactions. The hobby will remain with me I think until I'm so old my hands cannot put together a figure. It has been an endless source of personal satisfaction and entertainment, and has brought with it very many friends and fellow enthusiasts, mostly online. For that I'm always grateful.

The way I share the hobby is through photography, the internet and the production of comics which I post on forums such as this one a bit, and Action Man Mobile Operations (AMMO) a lot, as well as Flickr.  A big difference in the membership AMMO and all the other forums, is the willingness of members to jointly write and produce comics, or sometimes just created images and text in answer to each other's posts.  I have found this to be essentially unique to AMMO and as in all matters, I blame the creator, Dal. We all blame Dal.

As I have explained elsewhere, I view this as a form of guys (and sometimes gals) getting together to play with our action figures just as we did when we were kids, except instead of playing with the kid next door or down the street, modern electronics technology allows us to do it with very grown up kids hundreds, even thousands of miles away from us.  This is wonderful as it opens the door to playing many more kids than we did when we really were kids, and as pretty much all of us have much larger budgets and therefore collections than when we were kids, and the range and quality of the figures and accessories available today blows away what existed when I was a kid in the 60's and 70's. Consequently, we get exposed to the different collections, styles, likes and kitbashes of many, many people which in turn might influence us in what we do next.  

I do share some of my photos and comics with my "non-internet" friends...the ones I know will enjoy them, but other than that, pretty much everyone I REALLY share this hobby with is on the net. Let's face it....though the selection of products in now enormous compared to the glory days of GI Joe, when you transition from a mass marketed toy advertised on TV to a very specialized hobby, and as you go up in age, the percentage of people buying these things goes down steadily.

I would also add that I am virtually impossible to tease and completely unafraid what anyone might say about my hobby.

I'm reminded now that in only one instance--a woman I went to elementary school and high school with but have not seen since--who did not understand my collection, believe it or not, took offense at it because she thought it was sexist and disturbing. She was referring to photos I had posted in Facebook albums like this one. She even insisted I take them down, though she respected my military service.

Valley of Strange Occurances_20A by Gary Menten, on Flickr

I calmly explained that the photos had nothing whatsoever to do with my military service but were self expression of a post apocalyptic fantasy-comic book world. Moreover I explained, I failed to see what she could take offense at for seeing what are essentially skimpily dressed dolls, not real people when it was perfectly okay for little girls to play with skimpily dressed Barbie dolls; when real women could bee seen walking down the streets of Montreal dressed just as skimpily on any warm summer day, and while the real Rhodesian Army often dressed in very similar fashion in field operations during their civil war and showed her photographic proof that what I was saying was the truth.

Now those photos were all of men, dressed very much like in the photo above except for the boots...they preferred either shorter boots or running shoes, and I asked her if she was offended by those photos. Sensing I believe, the logical trap I'd set for her, she answered that she was offended, though i could seen no logical reason to be since there was no sexual context to those images, it's simply how that particular army liked to dress due to the hot climate of that country.

My conclusion of course was that she was far less offended by the photos then she was shocked that a male friend in his 50's would collect and photograph action figures representing beautiful women...That this was something disturbing about me. I did not take the photos down, and while we are still FB friends, we have not had much contact since. Some people are just incapable of grasping the hobby.

I think it is crazy that some things like collecting stamps or minerals, railroad etc. is social acceptable or even good but other things like figures create weird reactions? - probably because of the connection to children dolls. Even though most of them are super museum style or perfect for creativity outlets (bashing, comics, photography etc).
And even if you would literally collect children stuff, why would it bother anyone? stamps or anything else all have the same purpose in collecting: None, just the enjoyment of the collector.  

But the future looks bright imo with more and more of the boomer and younger generations still buying lego sets for themselves (like Ovy mentioned: we will never grow up) and playing video games until forever, I think it will be more and more common to have all the coolest free time enjoyments.



As for the photos and sexist or present war stuff etc: Do they know how many crazy artsy/horror/war movies exists and how many players love counterstrike?

Valiarde wrote:I think it is crazy that some things like collecting stamps or minerals, railroad etc. is social acceptable or even good but other things like figures create weird reactions? - probably because of the connection to children dolls. Even though most of them are super museum style or perfect for creativity outlets (bashing, comics, photography etc).
And even if you would literally collect children stuff, why would it bother anyone? stamps or anything else all have the same purpose in collecting: None, just the enjoyment of the collector.  

But the future looks bright imo with more and more of the boomer and younger generations still buying lego sets for themselves (like Ovy mentioned: we will never grow up) and playing video games until forever, I think it will be more and more common to have all the coolest free time enjoyments.



As for the photos and sexist or present war stuff etc: Do they know how many crazy artsy/horror/war movies exists and how many players love counterstrike?

There are actually some people who collect vintage children's dolls. Stief bears in decent condition are worth a mint on the toy collector's market, and somehow that's socially acceptable, as is buying and trading MIB Barbies...if you are a woman.

I think that the reversal of interest that we experience as we grow older is something that many people don't get. It's completely normal for eight or ten year-old boys to hold no interest in women and therefore have only male action figures just as it is for little girls to have only female dolls. In adulthood however, we tend to take a greater interest in the opposite sex, so why wouldn't it be normal for adult males to have female action figures representing adult women and adult women in their collections and adult women to have male action figures representing macho guys in theirs? I think there are a lot of people who just can't get past that.