NEW PRODUCT: COOMODEL X HOMER: 1/6 Pantheon Series - Ares & Hercules Hercules

Stryker2011 wrote:I’m a little more bummed at the price of these. I just received Athena and Hades today, and they were priced at 219.99 each — why the massive price increase? Because their male?

I agree. It must be the double standard. Men get paid more than women, so they cost more than women! Men are pigs! j/k No, I think it is just that they are coming out with them later, and prices were "due" an increase. Also, at least one of the male head sculpts is actually of an actual person (the Rock); I forget about the other.

DMAN970 wrote:Those were some awesome looking figs GubernatorFan, Do you specialize in any other humanoid animal figs?

I've been trying to make a Realistic Lion-O ThunderCats Scale figure. But the Head sculpt is tough as nails and I don't have enough skill for something that yet

From the look of these Coomodel figs I wonder what a Non-TBLeague Leonidas would look like

Thank you very much! No, that's the only animal-headed human I've made so far, but am not excluding something else down the line. TBLeague did a lion pelt scalp for their second Hercules, so maybe that could be modified into a full head -- I'd have to look at it again. I think that to a point an animal head sculpt ought to be a little easier to manage than a human one -- at least one of a specific human.

A non-TBLeague Leonidas? You mean like the Hot Toys version?
https://onesixthfigures.forumotion.com/t95-product-review-star-ace-queen-gorgo (my review does feature a few photos of Leonidas, too)
or http://www.mwctoys.com/REVIEW_041410b.htm

But then again I think you mean with hard plastic body and visible joints. Then maybe something like that:
http://www.mwctoys.com/REVIEW-011817a.htm

Yes GubernatorFan the mwctoys hard plastic version was a version I was talking about.
I'm truly glad there is a hard plastic version. Forgive me I'm very new in this hobby

Ares reminds me of Steve Reeves, a sword and sandals fave from days gone by. Hercules looks the best to me and it's interesting to see The Rock with that much hair.

any news or review on this? im very nervous about this line considering how (censored) things were last time with Athena and Hades

agentghost wrote:any news or review on this? im very nervous about this line considering how (censored) things were last time with Athena and Hades

Both are out in Asia, and some eBay sellers already have them broken down. Search for Coomodel Ares and Hercules (you can also thrown in the words "Homer" and "Pantheon" if you want to be more specific, but that might exclude some listings that could still be pertinent).

GubernatorFan wrote:Did someone say Minotaur?

I can easily say this is one of the best things I have seen. You get extra credit for actually depicting them as Helladic era characters with their kilts and with that labrys axe. The bulls head does look like an auroch too. Do you have any other customs like this? Ancient Greece (and Crete) from the Helladic to the Hellenistic is my main area of academic research.

Great stuff, GubernatorFan! Would love to see you do something with Odysseus (man, would love to see an Odysseus AF)!!

Kynaithos wrote:
I can easily say this is one of the best things I have seen. You get extra credit for actually depicting them as Helladic era characters with their kilts and with that labrys axe. The bulls head does look like an auroch too. Do you have any other customs like this? Ancient Greece (and Crete) from the Helladic to the Hellenistic is my main area of academic research.

Thank you very much, I'm glad you liked them. It's the reason I keep buying so many of these seamless bodies, but I haven't done that much with them in that respect yet. Here are some links to my Greek and Roman and other early stuff (besides reviews), though I'm sure I'm forgetting a bunch --

Ancient Greek Clothing (historical)

Conanesque (more fantasy)

Cynanesque (more fantasy)

Early Roman infantry (historical)

Hoplite (historical, kitbashed based on ACI set)

Lady of the Lake I-III and IV (a sort of mish-mash fantasy, but with some ancient references)

Oscan/Samnite warriors (historical, kitbashed based on HY HH set)

Pharaoh (historical, kitbashed based on TBLeague sets)

Theseus (older but fuller version)

Thor (god, not superhero)

djamesi wrote:Great stuff, GubernatorFan! Would love to see you do something with Odysseus (man, would love to see an Odysseus AF)!!

Thank you very much! I should look into making one of those. I think the Star Ace Themistokles came with a bow and arrow, so it should be doable. Now whom to cast as Odysseus, other than Armand Asante (I don't think they've made an action figure of him yet)...

GubernatorFan wrote:

Kynaithos wrote:
I can easily say this is one of the best things I have seen. You get extra credit for actually depicting them as Helladic era characters with their kilts and with that labrys axe. The bulls head does look like an auroch too. Do you have any other customs like this? Ancient Greece (and Crete) from the Helladic to the Hellenistic is my main area of academic research.

Thank you very much, I'm glad you liked them. It's the reason I keep buying so many of these seamless bodies, but I haven't done that much with them in that respect yet. Here are some links to my Greek and Roman and other early stuff (besides reviews), though I'm sure I'm forgetting a bunch --

Ancient Greek Clothing (historical)

Conanesque (more fantasy)

Cynanesque (more fantasy)

Early Roman infantry (historical)

Hoplite (historical, kitbashed based on ACI set)

Lady of the Lake I-III and IV (a sort of mish-mash fantasy, but with some ancient references)

Oscan/Samnite warriors (historical, kitbashed based on HY HH set)

Pharaoh (historical, kitbashed based on TBLeague sets)

Theseus (older but fuller version)

Thor (god, not superhero)

djamesi wrote:Great stuff, GubernatorFan! Would love to see you do something with Odysseus (man, would love to see an Odysseus AF)!!

Thank you very much! I should look into making one of those. I think the Star Ace Themistokles came with a bow and arrow, so it should be doable. Now whom to cast as Odysseus, other than Armand Asante (I don't think they've made an action figure of him yet)...

You and I seem to have many of the same interests! Everything you have made is based around things I have more than a passive fondness for. After Greek history, my other passions are Arthurian literature and ancient Egypt, and then Norse and Roman history and mythology. Conan is also one of my favourite literary characters.

It is very nice to meet someone so passionate about these subjects!

Armand Assante is a great actor and I appreciate his attempt at giving Odysseus a Greek accent... he is one of the characters in the miniseries that pronounces the Greek names closest to how they should be pronounced, though he bases it more on modern Greek so the emphasises are slightly different and he "ph" is more or less an "f" instead of the breathy "p" as it was in ancient Greek, and the "th" is like in the word "think" instead of being a breathy "t">

Also, I just love the soundtrack from that movie! So emotive.

Kynaithos wrote:You and I seem to have many of the same interests! Everything you have made is based around things I have more than a passive fondness for. After Greek history, my other passions are Arthurian literature and ancient Egypt, and then Norse and Roman history and mythology. Conan is also one of my favourite literary characters.

It is very nice to meet someone so passionate about these subjects!

Armand Assante is a great actor and I appreciate his attempt at giving Odysseus a Greek accent... he is one of the characters in the miniseries that pronounces the Greek names closest to how they should be pronounced, though he bases it more on modern Greek so the emphasises are slightly different and he "ph" is more or less an "f" instead of the breathy "p" as it was in ancient Greek, and the "th" is like in the word "think" instead of being a breathy "t">

Also, I just love the soundtrack from that movie! So emotive.

Indeed, that is quite an overlap. And this forum is fast becoming one for discussing the difference in pronunciation between Ancient Greek, Greek, and English. (This just came up in shovelchop's thread.) I've had the relatively unusual college experience of my Greek professor favoring modern Greek pronunciation ("not identical to the ancient, but nevertheless a sound a Greek mouth would make"), so that doesn't bother me (though I insist on a very scholarly transliteration, yet roll my eyes at Y rendered U in anything but diphthongs). I have to confess it has been a long time since I've seen Assante's Odysseus, but it was rather good (despite a certain visual uncertainty as to whether it belongs in the Mycenaean or Archaic period) -- I'm rewatching some of it right now on YouTube.

GubernatorFan wrote:

Indeed, that is quite an overlap. And this forum is fast becoming one for discussing the difference in pronunciation between Ancient Greek, Greek, and English. (This just came up in shovelchop's thread.) I've had the relatively unusual college experience of my Greek professor favoring modern Greek pronunciation ("not identical to the ancient, but nevertheless a sound a Greek mouth would make"), so that doesn't bother me (though I insist on a very scholarly transliteration, yet roll my eyes at Y rendered U in anything but diphthongs).

I might love modern Greek more than older forms of Greek such as Aeolic, Attic or Homeric but I try to use the older forms of the names when explaining about them just so the fact that they didn't speak exactly the same as modern Greeks can become more widely known by at least in my circles. I will say that some of the names of the Iliad are easier to say if you don't pronounce them with modern Greek sounds, such as names like "Aigisthos"... but them names such as "Phemios" (more or less "P-hem-ios") in Homeric Greek sound rather terrible and much nicer in modern Greek.

GubernatorFan wrote:I have to confess it has been a long time since I've seen Assante's Odysseus, but it was rather good (despite a certain visual uncertainty as to whether it belongs in the Mycenaean or Archaic period) -- I'm rewatching some of it right now on YouTube.

The mash up of late Mycenaean stuff and some Archaic/early-Classic things makes me view it as how Homer and much of his audience would have viewed it as they oddly did have a decent knowledge of many aspects of at least the arms and armour of the period, such as figure-eight shields and boar tusks helmets but they obviously would have needed to fill in the gaps with things they actually could see in their day to day lives.

The adaptation despite being a bit of a mash up is one of the nicer looking movies based on Greek Mythology though, even if the costumes quite as colourful* as I'd like, especially due to the recreations - or creation as some are not replicas, just done in the style - of Mycenaean and Minoan frescoes and the beautiful trireme.

I think the best depiction of the Mycenaean era on screen was probably in the 'Theseus and The Minotaur' episode of 'The Storyteller: Greek Myths'. They also made a valiant attempt in the Doctor Who serial 'The Time Monster', though they "kitbashed" Theran warriors using Roman armour and weird helmets, had a few Classical Karyatides, and they depicted the ornamental labryses pretty eccentrically; but they did really make an effort with much of the costuming, hair, makeup (even the men have kohl on their eyes) and much of the sets (using murals and other motifs derived from Hagia Triada sarcophagus, Akrotiri and Knossos) not to mention the lion gate of Mykenai.  They also invented "what if" Minoan Karyatides, which were rather nice!






Interestingly enough, the Doctor also had one of those wooden replicas of the Knossos Throne in his TARDIS control room back in the 60-70s:




*At least not the Ithakans, though I get what they are going for.

Figure-8 shields and boars tusk helmets disappear from the archaeological record a couple of centuries before the alleged date of the Trojan war at the end of the Bronze Age. There are no figure-8 shields in the Iliad and the only boars tusk helmet is described as coming from an earlier period. All of the other gear described in the Iliad is consistent with gear that was in use at the end of the Bronze Age.

Kynaithos Homerides wrote:
I think the best depiction of the Mycenaean era on screen was probably in the 'Theseus and The Minotaur' episode of 'The Storyteller: Greek Myths'. They also made a valiant attempt in the Doctor Who serial 'The Time Monster', though they "kitbashed" Theran warriors using Roman armour and weird helmets, had a few Classical Karyatides, and they depicted the ornamental labryses pretty eccentrically; but they did really make an effort with much of the costuming, hair, makeup (even the men have kohl on their eyes) and much of the sets (using murals and other motifs derived from Hagia Triada sarcophagus, Akrotiri and Knossos) not to mention the lion gate of Mykenai.  They also invented "what if" Minoan Karyatides, which were rather nice!

Interestingly enough, the Doctor also had one of those wooden replicas of the Knossos Throne in his TARDIS control room back in the 60-70s:

I haven't seen these. The wooden throne is funny -- I both appreciate and regret it. Come on, people, you obviously knew the source, why not get it right?
If you want to see a very weird rendition of the myth and look, look up the Tom Hardy movie Minotaur. The horrid Troy movie from a few years back, and the old swords and sandals epic Minotaur, Monster of the Labyrinth, were at least pretty good at (occasionally) getting the architectural look about right.

shazzdan wrote:Figure-8 shields and boars tusk helmets disappear from the archaeological record a couple of centuries before the alleged date of the Trojan war at the end of the Bronze Age. There are no figure-8 shields in the Iliad and the only boars tusk helmet is described as coming from an earlier period. All of the other gear described in the Iliad is consistent with gear that was in use at the end of the Bronze Age.

That is a fair point, they did disappear from the archaeological record around c. 1340 BC but they might have late figure-eight shields as decorative features of the late Helladic* - and they are IIRC used as such in 'The Odyssey' mini-series - but I probably should have said "proto-Dipylon" shield, which is of a similar shape, though most warriors of the period probably had crescent shields (Achilles's shield is compared to the moon at one point, in fact, though it could be round) or circular. That said, the Iliad actually does mention tower shields, which I did take to refer to the figure-eight shields, but the shield that the Telemonian Aias (or ''Ajax") wields is often depicted as square; though the shields are pretty much always described as round, though the larger ones would probably have to be shields of the figure-eight style or proto-Dipylon style as completely circular shields large enough to reach the ankles (as Hector's does, for instance) would be too large and completely unwieldly even compared to earlier Mycenaean figure-eights; this logic led to the great Peter Connolly and other visual historians to depict them shaped like an eight or a Dipylon and I would agree with them; though I'd argue that oval shields are likely too and we do have evidence of them in the Mycenaean period. It might be a bit of a stretch to say that the people of the Archaic and Classical periods would have understood how the shields would have looked, but they at least would more or less understand that they looked different to their usual aspides looked and would understand how a boar's tusk helmet would more or less look, so I think my point is still more or less fair.

Though one boar tusk helmet is mention - the one given to Odysseus by Meriones - this doesn't mean that no other warrior of the period would have actually had one. It is evidence enough that either they were still in use as a symbol of prestige after their apogee or the memory of them was passed done until it reached "Homer".

The fact that tower shields - regardless of shape - and boar's tusk helmets are referenced is pretty impressive - though large proto-Dipylon may have lasted until the period in which Homer may have lived - and shows that the arms and armaments are probably not like that of the era in which the Iliad is was composed and, possibly, contains older features to that of the armies of the later part of Late Helladic IIIC depending on your interpretation of historical and literary data. I would also argue that the ancient Greeks when engaging with the Iliad probably didn't imagine that world as looking exactly like their own though it would be inaccurate and filled in with modern (for the) features and that is how I like to look at movies like 'The Odyssey'.

*A fragment of pottery dating to the end of the Late Helladic IIIB (roughly 1300-1200, and the Trojan War has been dated as early as 1334 BC+)  was found at Tiryn showing a figure-eight shield. The Late Helladic IIIB  spans the period 1300-1200, and the Trojan War has been dated as early as 1334 BCI do, however, prefer the later date of c. 1180 BC for the bulk of the tale found in the Iliad, but I do think earlier events such as that from the Troy that was destroyed around the 1270s by an earthquake probably were rolled into the myths of the Trojan war. Even so, the fragment of pottery from Tiryns is from a period not long before c. 1180 so it is a fair view that they did still have figure-eight shields after c. 1340.

GubernatorFan wrote:
I haven't seen these. The wooden throne is funny -- I both appreciate and regret it. Come on, people, you obviously knew the source, why not get it right?

I believe they were commissioned by Arthur Evans so that people could buy a piece of Minoan design for their own homes - and he had one himself in his home - and then just ended up in the show without them knowing that they were actually Minoan at all when they got them for the TARDIS!

GubernatorFan wrote: If you want to see a very weird rendition of the myth and look, look up the Tom Hardy movie Minotaur. The horrid Troy movie from a few years back, and the old swords and sandals epic Minotaur, Monster of the Labyrinth, were at least pretty good at (occasionally) getting the architectural look about right.

Yes, I remember that awful movie! Tony Todd plays Minos, right? I remember loving the older Italian movie you mentioned and I remember the architecture being pretty good. I think they reused elements of the sets for the one where Herakles (or Glaukos?) fights Moloch!

Which Troy movies do you mean?

Kynaithos Homerides wrote:That said, the Iliad actually does mention tower shields, which I did take to refer to the figure-eight shields

There are no tower shields in the Iliad either. Aias and his shield was said to be "like a tower/wall". His shield isn't a tower; Aias himself is depicted as the literary "tower of strength". Aias' shield was circular like all the others. The only difference between his and the others is that it was made of seven layers of hide instead of the usual four.

but the shield that the Telemonian Aias (or ''Ajax") wields is often depicted as square; though the shields are pretty much always described as round, though the larger ones would probably have to be shields of the figure-eight style or proto-Dipylon style as completely circular shields large enough to reach the ankles (as Hector's does, for instance) would be too large and completely unwieldly even compared to earlier Mycenaean figure-eights.

We have full height shields from other cultures that are circular so we know for a fact that they weren't unwieldy.

shazzdan wrote:

Kynaithos Homerides wrote:That said, the Iliad actually does mention tower shields, which I did take to refer to the figure-eight shields

There are no tower shields in the Iliad either.

The fact that the shield of Hector comes done to his ankles implies a tower shield.

shazzdan wrote:Aias and his shield was said to be "like a tower/wall".

Which sounds to me that it is large enough to be described as a "tower shield" and better historians than myself have made that conclusion; and Teukros his archer brother actually hides behind it in battle; it is worth noting that the large shield fits with the idea of Aias being as powerful and strong as he was, same with the construction of the shield (which you referenced) and the fact he hurls a rock at Hector's shield; the shield of Aias is described as "like a tower made of bronze, with seven layers, each one of ox-hidetower made of bronze"*. I personally do feel that Homer is obviously saying that Aias's shield is actually large but if you don't agree, it is fine, obviously.

Could Aias's shield have been smaller that it is often depicted really? Maybe... but the comparison of it with a tower or wall implies it probably is big, like that of Hector; and you cannot really deny the size of Hector's shield.

Aias' shield was circular like all the others.

I did acknowledge this but I don't agree that they mean literally circular with no indentions or things like that and I still cannot think of circular shields that are anywhere near the size of Hectors;

"With these words, Hector of the shining helmet moved away.
As he went, black leather running round the outer edge
on his studded shield struck his neck and ankles." - Iliad, Book Six. Ian Johnston translation).

"With this, Hector of the gleaming helm, departed, and as he went the black leather rim that ran round the outermost edge of his bossed shield tapped at his ankles and his neck." - A. S. Kline translation.

We have full height shields from other cultures that are circular so we know for a fact that they weren't unwieldy.

Which? Circular shields that are as big as that are extremely rare because they are hard to fight around. Even the bigger aspides or Norse shields weren't as big as the shield of Hector (and probably Aias). Most shields that reach down to the heels are square, tear-shaped (such as a kite shield) or oblong for a reason and figure-eight and Dipylon shields had indentations in the middle to make them easier to actually use with weapons, most probably. Large and completely round shields don't allow for good reach at all which is why I feel, and I am not alone thankfully (I am not just a crazy fool with a wild idea) that the large shields in the Iliad were probably oblong and with intentions like the figure of eight shield or the Dipylon shield; and I don't see why them having proto-Dipylon shields is controversial as we have representations of Dipylon-style shields in the Late Helladic IIIC, which corresponds with the best date (c. 1180) for a historical Trojan War.





*The Ian Johnston translation. I have translated the earlier parts of the Iliad myself - and recite the opening in Homeric Greek at parties for friends - but not Book Seven, which includes this fight but I am sure this translation is pretty accurate as I have read all of the Iliad in Greek. A.T. Murray renders it as "that was like a city wall, a shield of bronze with sevenfold bull's-hide", and A.S. Kline renders it as, " tower-like shield of bronze, with its sevenfold layers of leather".

Kynaithos Homerides wrote:
I believe they were commissioned by Arthur Evans so that people could buy a piece of Minoan design for their own homes - and he had one himself in his home - and then just ended up in the show without them knowing that they were actually Minoan at all when they got them for the TARDIS!

Yes, I remember that awful movie! Tony Todd plays Minos, right? I remember loving the older Italian movie you mentioned and I remember the architecture being pretty good. I think they reused elements of the sets for the one where Herakles (or Glaukos?) fights Moloch!

Which Troy movies do you mean?

Interesting... this Arthur Evans guy (yes, I know who he is, LOL) was up to all sorts of trouble, apparently.

Yes, that's the Minotaur movie I was talking about. As for the Italian movie, I think I was only able to see a Spanish version on YouTube when I looked years ago. But the sets were very cool.

The Troy movie I meant is the one with Brad Pitt, Eric Bana, Diane Krueger, Orlando Bloom, etc.

Kynaithos Homerides wrote:
The fact that the shield of Hector comes done to his ankles implies a tower shield.

shazzdan wrote:Aias and his shield was said to be "like a tower/wall".

Which sounds to me that it is large enough to be described as a "tower shield" and better historians than myself have made that conclusion; and Teukros his archer brother actually hides behind it in battle; it is worth noting that the large shield fits with the idea of Aias being as powerful and strong as he was, same with the construction of the shield (which you referenced) and the fact he hurls a rock at Hector's shield; the shield of Aias is described as "like a tower made of bronze, with seven layers, each one of ox-hidetower made of bronze"*. I personally do feel that Homer is obviously saying that Aias's shield is actually large but if you don't agree, it is fine, obviously.

Could Aias's shield have been smaller that it is often depicted really? Maybe... but the comparison of it with a tower or wall implies it probably is big, like that of Hector; and you cannot really deny the size of Hector's shield.

I have translated the earlier parts of the Iliad myself - and recite the opening in Homeric Greek at parties for friends - but not Book Seven, which includes this fight but I am sure this translation is pretty accurate as I have read all of the Iliad in Greek. A.T. Murray renders it as "that was like a city wall, a shield of bronze with sevenfold bull's-hide", and A.S. Kline renders it as, " tower-like shield of bronze, with its sevenfold layers of leather".

This is certainly reasonable. There is significant difficulty in simply drawing on Homer to extract secure inferences about any stage of Greek culture: he was writing (or composing) in the 8th century BC, and much of what he includes was drawn from the world around him. But he was covering events set about five centuries earlier in time, and at least some of that material (whether "remembered" accurately or not) would make sense at that earlier time but not in Homer's own. Some of the helmets (especially the boar-tusk kind), the "cup of Nestor," and several other features do seem to entail a reasonably fitting memory of the Greek Bronze Age. Homer is even aware of an earlier writing system (i.e., Linear B), though the best he can do in describing it is that Bellerophontēs brought to his would-be executioner Iobatēs in Lykia a sealed tablet inscribed in "certain murderous characters." But also note his memory of chariot warfare. On the one hand, it is impressive he "remembered" that in the Bronze Age chariots were used for warfare, something not really part of the Greek experience in his own time (though still encountered in the Near East, albeit with a lesser emphasis than before). Occasionally, his descriptions of this chariot warfare on the battlefield are fitting. But occasionally they make no sense: unlike a horse, a chariot would not jump over a ditch. And he often describes chariots used the way his own contemporaries used horses: to taxi the warrior to the battlefield, after which he dismounts and fights on foot. The point is, Homer's text is so uneven when it comes to the historical realities (and assumptions) it contains, that it is well nigh impossible to draw secure conclusions from it on pretty much any historical point.

GubernatorFan wrote:
Homer is even aware of an earlier writing system (i.e., Linear B), though the best he can do in describing it is that Bellerophontēs brought to his would-be executioner Iobatēs in Lykia a sealed tablet inscribed in "certain murderous characters." But also note his memory of chariot warfare. On the one hand, it is impressive he "remembered" that in the Bronze Age chariots were used for warfare, something not really part of the Greek experience in his own time (though still encountered in the Near East, albeit with a lesser emphasis than before). Occasionally, his descriptions of this chariot warfare on the battlefield are fitting. But occasionally they make no sense: unlike a horse, a chariot would not jump over a ditch. And he often describes chariots used the way his own contemporaries used horses: to taxi the warrior to the battlefield, after which he dismounts and fights on foot. The point is, Homer's text is so uneven when it comes to the historical realities (and assumptions) it contains, that it is well nigh impossible to draw secure conclusions from it on pretty much any historical point.

Oh, definitely. "Homer" wasn't a historian - a point Heinrich Schliemann even pointed out when some of the locations and material culture didn't quite tally up with the Iliad - and most of the things that do correspond with history are simply due to the art of oral storytelling. "Homer" probably used artistic license himself too; I will say that the fact that there are countless characters who share names in the Iliad is realistic though and unlike a lot of epic poetry, so either he is using real/mythical characters or he did care about realism!

The Iliad is clearly a mishmash of various stories, probably from various different eras relating to different epochs of Mycenaean and Trojan history. Aias, for instance, has been proposed as a character out of an earlier time and Paris probably was too, if we can equate this "Alexandros" with Alaksandu of Wilusa, same with Priam and Piyamaradu.

The chariot thing in the Iliad was always a source of amusement in college! The dismounting part always sticks in my mind, where we always joked about them being taxis too; it is a nice reminder that even the best works of art, with a decent understanding of some aspects of the past, are still tainted by the cultural biases of the author.

Kynaithos Homerides wrote:
Oh, definitely. "Homer" wasn't a historian - a point Heinrich Schliemann even pointed out when some of the locations and material culture didn't quite tally up with the Iliad - and most of the things that do correspond with history are simply due to the art of oral storytelling. "Homer" probably used artistic license himself too; I will say that the fact that there are countless characters who share names in the Iliad is realistic though and unlike a lot of epic poetry, so either he is using real/mythical characters or he did care about realism!

The Iliad is clearly a mishmash of various stories, probably from various different eras relating to different epochs of Mycenaean and Trojan history. Aias, for instance, has been proposed as a character out of an earlier time and Paris probably was too, if we can equate this "Alexandros" with Alaksandu of Wilusa, same with Priam and Piyamaradu.

The chariot thing in the Iliad was always a source of amusement in college! The dismounting part always sticks in my mind, where we always joked about them being taxis too; it is a nice reminder that even the best works of art, with a decent understanding of some aspects of the past, are still tainted by the cultural biases of the author.

Very nicely put and fitting. Of course, we should probably realize that Homer (and others) had to employ artistic license (perhaps even subconsciously at times), because he would not have had much of an alternative, not to mention the style and requirements of his field of work. The thing about such works is that one never quite knows at what point and to what extent someone decided to engage in writing fiction (as opposed to relating a memory of history or a pre-existing traditional tale, accompanied with some rationalization and/or elaboration). Although Lucian's "True story" of his trip to the moon is pretty fictional. Indeed, science-fictional.

We have full height circular shields from other cultures so we know for a fact that they weren't unwieldy. Here is an American one to start with:



This is a good example because the Huron fought the same way as the Mycenaeans, Assyrians, and others in the Middle East. They fought in "archer pairs" with a shield bearer protecting a companion archer. The shield had to be large enough to cover two people.

shazzdan wrote:This is a good example because the Huron fought the same way as the Mycenaeans, Assyrians, and others in the Middle East. They fought in "archer pairs" with a shield bearer protecting a companion archer. The shield had to be large enough to cover two people.

Not necessarily. Assyrian shield bearers came in two varieties: tall rectangular (? or tapered?) shields or not that big round shields. This illustration shows both, although neither is the focus of it --

My point is that we have full-height circular shields used by people who fought in a similar manner. The claim that they couldn't have existed because they are too unwieldy is absurd.