Opinion on Barbie Dolls?

Just to clarify, after seeing some of the other comments, I did not understand the question in the sense of whether Barbies and other dolls are "permitted" or "welcome" in the Forum. We all have our preferences when it comes to themes, subjects, products, etc., but as long as it is sixth scale and conforms with Forum Policies, it has a place here -- even though this is not specifically a doll forum. Actually, we have a non-sixth-scale section too; and even a Barbie deBarbiefied topic. The last is the result of using Barbie items to make more realistic versions usable in realistic dioramas -- after so many cases of looking at Barbie stuff and thinking "I wish this were more realistic/articulated/not pink."

Well, I didn't mean to speak for the forum rules, but since Lynkhart's work is permitted here, I just presumed that anything similar to it would be as well.

When I explain my hobby to others, most of them haven't heard of 'one to six'. But when I add "It is like Barbie for adults", everybody understands. I mean, it all began with Barbie. Btw: there is a cool show on Netflix: 'The Toys that made us'.

When I first got into this, I said to myself, "Nothing but Phicens (TBLeague) will do!  I have high standards."

Since I was largely creating a world where skimpily clad women dominated, this choice seemed logical.  Phicens are seamless and look better when scantily clad.

010122_0116C by Gary  Menten, on Flickr

I clung to this for as long as I could, and still do when it comes to scantily clad female figures.

Kamiko an Glynnis in Dinosaur Valley by Gary  Menten, on Flickr

Laura_2 by Gary  Menten, on Flickr

They just look a whole lot better when shoulder joints, knees and elbows would be exposed. I even maintained the practice with figures that did not uncover these parts of their bodies....



63 by Gary  Menten, on Flickr

But by and large, it dawned on me that if I was going to do some bad guys, and a lot of them, I could not afford to do it with Phicens and would need cheaper figures, which is where the jointed figures come into play.  

The Good and the Bad in Dinosaur Valley 7 by Gary  Menten, on Flickr

Page_3 by Gary  Menten, on Flickr

After all, if they are fully dressed, with only the wrist joints visible, what does it matter that they are less expensive jointed figures, aside from not having the heft and stability of silicone bodied figures? Not much.

Page_2 by Gary  Menten, on Flickr

Aside from the wrist joints, which are a pain with both seamless and jointed figures, is there anything in these images that point to the figure being a jointed figure?

Now this brings us to using visibly jointed female Fashion-doll figures into the world of seamless figures...Okay....not something I've done myself, but this never stopped the late MiskatonicNick from using fashion doll female figures figures with their fashion doll faces and visible joints in his images, and Nick was one of the grand masters of telling stories with 1/6 scale figures and a camera and it never stopped him. I include here a few of his photos.

Guests at a party by MiskatonicNick, on Flickr

Two of the three figures here are showing their joints, the third isn't. But is the photo effective?  Does it resonate with you somehow?  If so, it proves that the visible joints don't much matter.

"Jiggle you will" by MiskatonicNick, on Flickr
Is this photo effective?

Cyber Hustle by MiskatonicNick, on Flickr

TAG GAME: Girls Night Out by MiskatonicNick, on Flickr

Does this work for you?  

Alien Experiments by MiskatonicNick, on Flickr

What about this one?  


The truth is that they all work for me.  They work because I look beyond the doll itself.  Great if you can afford nothing but TBLeague figures, but what made Nick's photos memorable and great, was not that his figures were jointed or seamless, but his creativity,  imagination, sense of humour, and his dios, which are to die for.  

I know you can build pretty awesome backdrops and dios.  I think you have a sense of humor.  Do you have a style yet?  I'd say you probably do.  

In short, if you put good stories together and good photos, I don't think anyone will be bothered by your mixing seamless and fashion-doll figures.as for me, while I don't own any fashion-doll figures, I have no qualms mixing anime style figures with more realistic ones if it suits my comedic sense.


Page_2 by Gary  Menten, on Flickr

This thread feels made for me! XD

My entry into the hobby was initially via ogling other people’s 1/6 figures, but at the time they were too expensive and hard to get for me, so I bought a couple of cheap barbies to customise, then Mattel brought out the highly articulated Made to Move bodies and well, that was that for me! The irony was that as a kid I hated the idea that I was ‘supposed’ to like dolls and everything they stood for. (Which, as a 90s kid, seemed to be nonstop pink, fashion and shopping ) As a result I had very few, and the only one that survived my childhood has literal battle scars and war paint from my early attempts to ‘de-barbiefy’ her

Since then I’ve made several hybrid figs on MTM bodies but with action figure/ 1/6 headsculpts and more realistic clothing etc. All my fantasy/sci fi characters are like this, and it’s only Max and Juno and their friends who are kept stylised and more doll-like.

Breanaa by Christine Sutcliffe, on Flickr

Breanna by Christine Sutcliffe, on Flickr

I love the realism in them, but one thing I find in the hobby in general, especially when people use seamless bodies is that there can often be a case of the ‘uncanny valley’ with them, mostly if the posing isn’t quite right, and that always puts me off. Barbies and other fashion dolls avoid that by being stylised from the get-go, but still convincing enough to fit with realistic dioramas and accessories.

Breakfast at Max and Juno's by Christine Sutcliffe, on Flickr

Breakfast at Max and Juno's by Christine Sutcliffe, on Flickr

Max and Juno by Christine Sutcliffe, on Flickr

Juno by Christine Sutcliffe, on Flickr

Max and Juno at the beach by Christine Sutcliffe, on Flickr

There’s a much greater range of diversity in the Barbie world these days, especially in body type, and clunky knees aside, the Curvy MTM body is my absolute favourite.

Kirsty and Petra by Christine Sutcliffe, on Flickr

They’ve also got a Petite (which I don’t have yet) and a Tall, which I recently switched Juno’s head onto as I’ve always thought of her as being a bit taller. (Unfortunately now most of the clothes I’ve made her over the last few years don’t fit properly ) I’ve also switched out both of their hands with Fashion Royalty ones I got off Ali Express as they’re much more expressive than the default Barbie ones.

Juno goes to IKEA by Christine Sutcliffe, on Flickr

Dungeons and Dragons and Dolls by Christine Sutcliffe, on Flickr

Dungeons and Dragons and Dolls by Christine Sutcliffe, on Flickr

(And yes, there will be a D&D photostory at some point, I just need to finish writing it, I took the photos months ago! )

I can totally understand why most folk aren’t a fan of Barbies and the like, and certainly straight out of the box they can be pretty bland and offputting, but with the right headsculpt and decent clothes they’re great little figures! Many of the recent playline ones do have oversized heads and weird teeth, so I always keep my eyes peeled for movie tie in dolls or older ‘Dolls of the World’ ones as they were much more realistic, though I’m lucky to find anything decent where I am!

Also @ThePhotosgsBlog, thank you for bringing up the much missed MiskatonicNick - his photos were so inspirational to me when I first got into the hobby, and I still look back at his Flickr albums regularly. Such a huge loss.

Much like with Nick's photos, Christine, when I look at yours, I look at the whole photo, not just the figure or figures. I look at what's in the photo when you've built a dio, or how you handle the discrepancies of scale when shooting outdoors. I look at how the photo is composed, how the figures are posed, and I ask myself, as I do with any photo, "is this effective. Does it communicate the message? " The answer has always been "yes." The fact that they are shot with fashion dolls or hybrids is of less concern than the composition as a whole. Do I prefer Phicens for female figures? Totally. Do I look down my nose at anyone who either can't afford them or prefers to use fashion dolls? Nope! That would be like saying that a skilled photographer with a $500.00 camera can't shoot a better photo than a mediocre or poor photographer with a $3000.00 camera.

Sarah, if you like the figures, the heads and so on, use them. They are your photos and your fun.

You definitely make the most of Barbie's potential, Lynkhart! And I'm glad you do, your figures and photo stories are an absolute joy to behold, and the 1/6 world would be lesser without them. :')

What happened to MiskatonicNick?

skywalkersaga wrote:What happened to MiskatonicNick?

He passed away. Cancer, from what I was told.

Ohh, Christine! I’m looking forward to your DnD photo story! That’s going to be epic if your Max and Juno photos are anything to go by.

That being said, I hope those that were adamantly opposed to Barbie haven’t scared Sarah from posting her stuff.

ZeroDelta wrote:

skywalkersaga wrote:What happened to MiskatonicNick?

He passed away. Cancer, from what I was told.

I'm so sorry to hear that.

@davidd: nice twins!
@Lynkhart: I love you pictures. The figures are charming and the scenes are made with love for the detail.
I am often on Instagram. There are a lot of really amazing posts showing Barbie Dolls or Fashion Dolls. I recommend e.g. dolls_buzz. It is a young female teacher from Austria, who creates great dioramas of X-Files-scenes using the Barbie Collector Dolls.

Interesting point about that uncanny valley and the helpful effect of the stylized figures, Christine. It makes sense, perhaps revealing a subconscious double-standard. I, too, am sensitive to awkward posing of seamless bodies (which happens to the best of us), but realize I'm somehow more forgiving with the more obviously stylized ones. And thank you for the additional glimpses into your characters, scenes, and dioramas. I'm looking forward to that game photo story. Excellent work on the Breanna character, too.

GubernatorFan wrote:Interesting point about that uncanny valley and the helpful effect of the stylized figures [...]

When I originally got into 1/6 scale, I had wanted to do stylised figures. I was coming from the perspective of being more of a doll fan at the time (albeit I wasn't really into Barbies, I was moreso into fashion dolls and custom art dolls). It also made sense to me because I was hoping to recreate Clone Wars characters, which are portrayed with a very distinctive animation style. I likewise had a similar perspective to Lynkhart in that I actually found some of the hyper-realistic 1/6 figures a little 'uncanny valley', or just not very aesthetically pleasing (this was before I saw the customisation potential via users like ReverendSpooky, Ephiane, and Ovy, etc). And Phicens/Tbleagues put me off big time because of how over-sexualised and catered to the male gaze they were (still puts me off, tbh, lol ).

But there came a point at which I had to make a decision..... I had to choose to whether I'd make my custom figures 'match' the few Hot Toys Star Wars figures I already had in my collection, or if I'd just try to make a totally different stylised line-up which wouldn't really be able to interact with the realistic SW figures. I only finally made the decision to go 'realistic' after I found that PeakToys Natalie Portman headsculpt sometime in late 2018. I then joined this forum to ask about the petite Tbleague bodies in January 2019, and that convinced me to at least give them a try. Once I'd seen the customisation potential of the more realistic 1/6th figures, I decided to stick with that aesthetic for my planned SW customs. But it actually took some convincing for me to take that first step.

Interesting journey, Sky. You bring up the other good point of figure compatibility: it is indeed often (perhaps not always) difficult to include more stylized and more realistic figures side by side without making it... distracting, to put it nicely. I was always most taken in by realism (attractive or not, useful or not), so for me the decision always leaned in the direction of the more realistic head sculpts and, consequently, bodies. Now, seamless and realistic are not always the same thing, but seamlessness helps realism in principle, hence the attractiveness of that choice to me. And I share your unease about aspects of the promotion of these seamless bodies and in particular the over-exaggerated features of some (where bigger is not really always better, and I'd say realism flies out of the window). It still puts me off at times, but I'll leave it at that. You seemed to appreciate my attempts at making a Hutt-slayer Leia (until recently, anyway; one more update coming up).

At any rate, I didn't think of this discussion as being for or against the inclusion of (Barbie, Fashion, etc.) dolls in the forum, just as an expression of personal preferences. Our members do wonders with all sorts of figures (and not just in sixth scale), and the characters and scenes they create are all welcome (of course, provided they conform to forum policies).

To me this is not about visible joints but rather about the "Barbie faces", which are less realistic. So, that is up to everyone's preference. There are really nice Barbie faces around (especially - but not limited to - among the Collector Series, as Lynkharts has mentioned, or the recent "Looks" series) - but when hearing BARBIE, we usually think of the most basic Playline dolls and basic - pink - outfits, which are probably least prefered amont collectors. (and then there are the other Fashion Doll Brands for adult collectors aside from those produced by Mattel - playline and collector -, some really expensive...)

I am simply blown away by Lynkhart's creations (I would love to steal this kitchen!) and really like the heads she has chosen and what she has made of them. Also love the Breanna custom. Can't think of anything I had not found amazing of what I have seen from her so far. Irrespective of whether I would chose that doll myself or not.

But there are Barbie heads that simply do not speak to me and that will have a hard time in any picture without major modifications. But,  there are also Action Figures that will have a hard time to please me in any picture...

so, just keep the pics coming, of whatever figures and dolls

Good point about the heads, Illusion, although, like you mentioned, some of them, and some of the heads for particular lines especially, are very promising. Fashion dolls heads are very promising too, even if they have that certain fashion mannequin style which is often unrealistic (very few real people pull it off, and they are usually dressed just like that.)

Lynkhart wrote:
I love the realism in them, but one thing I find in the hobby in general, especially when people use seamless bodies is that there can often be a case of the ‘uncanny valley’ with them, mostly if the posing isn’t quite right, and that always puts me off. Barbies and other fashion dolls avoid that by being stylised from the get-go, but still convincing enough to fit with realistic dioramas and accessories.

They’ve also got a Petite (which I don’t have yet) and a Tall, which I recently switched Juno’s head onto as I’ve always thought of her as being a bit taller. (Unfortunately now most of the clothes I’ve made her over the last few years don’t fit properly ) I’ve also switched out both of their hands with Fashion Royalty ones I got off Ali Express as they’re much more expressive than the default Barbie ones.

Hi,

First, I love your dolls. I actually messaged you on Instagram like a weirdo to say so.

Second, I completely agree, while I love my Phicens, this is a gripe I have. One major issue is when people do not rotate the forearm in such a way that is anatomically correct. Just looking at rotating a human hand it doesn't turn at the wrist, but the elbow.

Three, I've been on the lookout for the petite Barbie made to move dolls.

Four, are the hands from aliexpress just plug and play into made to move?

GubernatorFan wrote:Interesting journey, Sky. You bring up the other good point of figure compatibility: it is indeed often (perhaps not always) difficult to include more stylized and more realistic figures side by side without making it... distracting, to put it nicely. I was always most taken in by realism (attractive or not, useful or not), so for me the decision always leaned in the direction of the more realistic head sculpts and, consequently, bodies. Now, seamless and realistic are not always the same thing, but seamlessness helps realism in principle, hence the attractiveness of that choice to me.

Yeah, it was a bit of a roundabout way of getting here. I mean, I already did have an extensive action figure collection, too, but it was mostly smaller 3.75" figures, many of which were also fairly stylised (especially the Clone Wars Collection, which is what I was originally trying to 'mimic' in 1/6 scale).  I've always loved realism too, and was obsessed with dollhouse miniatures as a kid. But the issue with deciding which direction to go with the SW figures was less about what I preferred (I enjoy both stylised and realistic figures, depending on the context), and more about what kinds of bodies, heads, and accessories were readily available for customisation, and that ended up being the Hot Toys-style realism.

GubernatorFan wrote:And I share your unease about aspects of the promotion of these seamless bodies and in particular the over-exaggerated features of some (where bigger is not really always better, and I'd say realism flies out of the window). It still puts me off at times, but I'll leave it at that. You seemed to appreciate my attempts at making a Hutt-slayer Leia (until recently, anyway; one more update coming up).

Yeah, it just gets old after a while. When I started looking into the tbleague bodies, I thought it was somewhat ironic that there was all that effort put into making the realistic seamless 'flesh', only for the actual *shape* and anatomy of the body to be so, well, unrealistic.

As for Leia the Hutt-slayer, I guess that is an exception that I don't mind so much, since a) Leia is a favourite character, and b) Return of the Jedi was one of my all-time favourite movies as a kid, so it has huge nostalgic value for me, golden bikini and all.

And Saradactyl -- that's a good point about awkward forearm and wrist placement, which can be distracting. Though maybe I'm thinking of a different issue than what you are actually describing.

If I'm being honest, I still find Tbleague bodies very difficult and even somewhat intimidating to pose. I've been mostly just so focused on finishing my line-up of custom figures to a satisfactory degree that I've not even delved too deeply into posing and photo stories yet.

Sarahdactyl wrote:

Lynkhart wrote:
I love the realism in them, but one thing I find in the hobby in general, especially when people use seamless bodies is that there can often be a case of the ‘uncanny valley’ with them, mostly if the posing isn’t quite right, and that always puts me off. Barbies and other fashion dolls avoid that by being stylised from the get-go, but still convincing enough to fit with realistic dioramas and accessories.

They’ve also got a Petite (which I don’t have yet) and a Tall, which I recently switched Juno’s head onto as I’ve always thought of her as being a bit taller. (Unfortunately now most of the clothes I’ve made her over the last few years don’t fit properly ) I’ve also switched out both of their hands with Fashion Royalty ones I got off Ali Express as they’re much more expressive than the default Barbie ones.

Hi,

First, I love your dolls. I actually messaged you on Instagram like a weirdo to say so.

Second, I completely agree, while I love my Phicens, this is a gripe I have. One major issue is when people do not rotate the forearm in such a way that is anatomically correct. Just looking at rotating a human hand it doesn't turn at the wrist, but the elbow.

Three,  I've been on the lookout for the petite Barbie made to move dolls.

Four, are the hands from aliexpress just plug and play into made to move?

Ahhhh I meant to reply to that earlier but I got distracted! Thank you so much!

The hands are mostly plug and play in theory, but the peg part is considerably thinner than the Barbie ones, so I wrap some thin masking tape round them a bit to pad them out. They’re also longer than the Barbie wrist pegs so I drill out the arms a bit with a dremel rather than cutting them down. I think it’s definitely worth it for the range of gestures available!

https://www.instagram.com/p/CL4LyPOpBCg/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=