How to Color a Phicen / TBLeague with Shoe Cream

Thank you so much Diana, it means a lot The likeness on Lou is so far so good
Oh lovely! I hope we might see those results. Assist, please don't hesitate to ask.

One Sixth Practical wrote:To lighten a Phicen, a white cream may be worth a try... It might not be of strength for a Kratos, but may turn a sun-kissed male Phicen body to a pale anglo-aaxon for example.

Has anyone tried this? I've got a headsculpt that's lighter (and less pink) than the Jaiou light skin body I'm using it on.

Would love to get some references before diving in.

jlacivita wrote:

One Sixth Practical wrote:To lighten a Phicen, a white cream may be worth a try... It might not be of strength for a Kratos, but may turn a sun-kissed male Phicen body to a pale anglo-aaxon for example.

Has anyone tried this? I've got a headsculpt that's lighter (and less pink) than the Jaiou light skin body I'm using it on.

Would love to get some references before diving in.

I haven't tried it. From other experience and earlier discussion here, it seems likely that it might be difficult to make the body lighter this way. Oil pastel works well:
https://onesixthfigures.forumotion.com/t4922-yet-another-tbleague-body-pale-repaint-experiment-updated-with-part-ii-2-0

Thanks!

jlacivita wrote:Thanks!

You're welcome. I should have added, for more on the coloring seamless bodies with oil pastel, it might be good to see in general the relevant thread (separate from the specific pale customs) --
https://onesixthfigures.forumotion.com/t260-painting-seamless-bodies-nsfw

Thanks again. I can see there's lots of reading for me to do, as I've never modified a body tone like this.

In case you can short-circuit me to the right part of the forum, i'm trying to lighten/cool a light skinned Jiaou body (teenage male). As you can see from the photo it's much more pink thank I need.

jlacivita wrote:Thanks again. I can see there's lots of reading for me to do, as I've never modified a body tone like this.

In case you can short-circuit me to the right part of the forum, i'm trying to lighten/cool a light skinned Jiaou body (teenage male). As you can see from the photo it's much more pink thank I need.

Is that a Fight Club custom? Either way, looks nice. I can see what you mean, although the mismatch could have been worse. Jiaou's TPE surface is more prone to damage than TBLeague's. The only thing that might help, perhaps, is warming up the oil pastel before rubbing it onto the surface, and being gentle rubbing it in with the sponge. It might be a safer choice to get the Jiaou body in a different color. Take a look here -- the second posting of comparisons (post 27) has all three of the regular Jiaou male skin tones:

https://onesixthfigures.forumotion.com/t3830-jiaou-doll-male-bodies-10a-11c-12d-and-tbleague-m30-m33-m35-comparison

Identify which one you have and go from there.

When it comes to these situations, I often think it would be easier to just repaint the headsculpt to match the body, but I know not everyone feels up to doing that.

ETA: I almost forgot to mention.....there is also Kayla's makeup tinting method (see Tutorials section).Might be worth a try at least. Because to my eyes, it doesn't look like the head is lighter than the body, it just looks like they are totally different skintones.

Hi jlacivita. For the same reasons GubernatorFan has stated (Jiaou's TPE surface is more prone to damage than TBLeague's), I would advise against oil pastel. The safer/softer option is using the color 'gray' of the Tamiya Weathering Master - E set, sold on Amazon. The gray of E set has a bluish tint, enough to provide the 'cool' tone you are looking for. We often assume that a body or head sculpt needs to be whitened in order to be made pale, but in most cases, a subtle shade of blue can make an overly pink/orange skin look effectively cool/pale to our optics. My recommended technique is to very lightly comb the surface of the gray pigment with a needle so as to moderately powderise the surface. Use any round shaped makeup sponge and just dab the powder onto the body. Tamiya Weathering Master is essentially eye shadow. It is the same compound of a powdery consistency. The sets come with its own tiny little sponge-tipped applicator but using that will take an eternity so use a regular sized makeup sponge. Upper body alone will take about an hour for a nice even coverage. If it looks overly gray don't worry. Once rinsed, gray pigment will drastically dilute. First rinse with cold water only. If the gray is still too strong, wash the body with a couple of drops of dish soap and a splash of water then tap rinse. I've discovered that some American dish soaps (typically the mildest of all soaps) are stronger than what I get here in Japan, so the quantity of dish soap should be kept to a minimum. Find the mildest soap by research, locally. Too much soap or the wrong type of soap can undo all your hard work, while no soap at all can leave patches of over-saturated coloration.

A note to GubernatorFan - Tamiya's B set has a 'snow' white. If you are still looking to whiten a Phicen, I think that one would be worth a try.  

I’m still tempted to try using the red shoe cream to make Darth Talon — I wonder if I could then use those tint pens Ian has used to make his Darth Maul figures afterward…

Since I saw the photo, I'm not sure how I would approach the color matching, so I can offer no more specific recommendation of my own.
The Tamiya weathering technique -- is that going to produce a permanent, albeit partly fading effect?
Mark, I cannot confirm that the Gundam Real Touch markers would work permanently if applied to a surface treated with shoe cream, as I still haven't tried that technique. I can check whether they work after oil pastel has been applied -- but note that my Maul 3.0 was all Gundam Real Touch, and no oil pastel.

Ahh, okay. Interesting. Thanks for telling me/us, Ian.

GubernatorFan wrote:Is that a Fight Club custom? Either way, looks nice.

Yes, Rainman headsculpt from the final scene. I've had it in storage for years, since I had a different Narrator, in a suit, on display. Finally decided to kitbash the final scene outfit. Thanks!

skywalkersaga wrote:there is also Kayla's makeup tinting method (see Tutorials section).Might be worth a try at least. Because to my eyes, it doesn't look like the head is lighter than the body, it just looks like they are totally different skintones.

One Sixth Practical wrote:Hi jlacivita. For the same reasons GubernatorFan has stated (Jiaou's TPE surface is more prone to damage than TBLeague's), I would advise against oil pastel. The safer/softer option is using the color 'gray' of the Tamiya Weathering Master - E set, sold on Amazon. The gray of E set has a bluish tint, enough to provide the 'cool' tone you are looking for. We often assume that a body or head sculpt needs to be whitened in order to be made pale, but in most cases, a subtle shade of blue can make an overly pink/orange skin look effectively cool/pale to our optics.

Sounds like similar advice from you both, thanks! I'll try the Tamiya Weathering Master - E set.

GubernatorFan wrote:Since I saw the photo, I'm not sure how I would approach the color matching, so I can offer no more specific recommendation of my own.
The Tamiya weathering technique -- is that going to produce a permanent, albeit partly fading effect?.

I'm curious about this too. Also, there's no need for any medium? Like this dry stuff will just bond to the body after applying it and letting it sit?

Thanks again everyone!

The Tamiya Weathering Master technique is permanent yes, with no fading period unlike shoe cream. A water rinse will remove some of the initial color but no loss of color beyond that. Excessive handing of TPE with bare hands can gradually dilute color over time, but that is also true of pastel so is hardly worth the mention. Its essentially the same as Kayla's coloring method using high-end foundation. The difference being makeup foundation is a powder while Tamiya Weathering Master is like eye shadow (brittle brick) and need to be slightly powderised with a needle after each dab with makeup sponge for a more even coverage.

I took the liberty of coloring lets say... Phicen's TPE "samples". Sample on the left: original male Phicen TPE, untouched. Middle: color 'snow' of Tamiya Weathering Master Set B. Right: 'gray' of Set E. What you see is the before and after of a soap-less cold water rinse. As I guessed, the middle sample retains around half of the original snow/white pigment, enough to make pale virtually any PTE body, Phicen or Jiaou Doll. The right sample also retains around half the gray pigment that perfectly matches the gray skin tone seen on jlacivita's Edward Norton sculpt, although here I would recommend a soap wash since the color of the sample that I see now retains a little more blue/gray than is necessary. As for turning a tanned Phicen white, I would ask Kayla if there's a white foundation in the brand that she uses. I have no clue as to that brand's color choice but if there's a white adjacent, it should offer the same paleness as I've shown... at least in theory.

One Sixth Practical wrote:The Tamiya Weathering Master technique is permanent yes, with no fading period as with shoe cream. A water rinse will remove some of the initial color but no loss of color past that.

Great thanks!

One Sixth Practical wrote:I took the liberty of coloring lets say... Phicen's TPE "samples".

Oh, thanks for doing this experiment! It never occurred to me to use those "samples" for testing out the colors. I usually give them to my wife as a joke. The Jiaou "samples" are particularly entertaining.

My pleasure. I was curious about it myself... Yes, those "samples" are extremely useful and can hopefully prevent many from ruining their costly seamless figures with unnecessary experiments on the body itself! If you slice the samples down the middle, you'll increase surface area and double the number of samples. Just a tip, pun intended. Since some may be offended by their unmistakable shapes, I've increase mosaic blur on the prior image post. My wife is also amused by the "samples". Great for practical jokes and great for samples but I honestly do not understand why Phicen and Jiaou continue to include them... As I see it, without the anatomical correctness of both male and female seamless bodies, their global sales would increase by magnitudes. The shyness, secrecy and avoidance that comes with the sigma of looking like miniature sex doll vs. mainstream acceptance as top-notch products on all Toy/Hobby review platforms. What the hell are they thinking...

Now, now. When you say you "I honestly do not understand why Phicen and Jiaou continue to include them," one suspects you lack either imagination or honesty. Whether and how one uses them is another matter. I'd rather have them and not need them than the reverse. And, as some others have pointed out, even fully clothed up, they sometimes improve realism. And if not clothed up, arguably a castrated body is more disturbing than a complete one (especially when we are talking about bodies aiming at realism) -- not talking about displaying it here. One could wonder more about Jiaou's choice of including attachable alternatives alongside a very underdeveloped one that is part of the body's sculpt (the latter doesn't seem necessary).

Well, whatever one thinks of the, er, appendages , the colour experiment was very helpful. Thanks for that.

While I’ve only used one of the “appendages” openly (sort of a way to equal out the naked ladies that came with the Death Dealer), I do use them under clothes because it adds the realistic “bulge” that makes pants, etc., sit normally so the figure doesn’t look like a Ken doll.

GubernatorFan, I do recognize that there is a vast market for such realism and there's clearly no lack of imagination shown by those who appreciate that visual aspect of them, so it's doubtful that Phicen or Jiaou will ever try to phase them out. But hypothetically speaking... if a new company was to produce seamless bodies of identical quality but without detailed features that must be visually censored for every image on retail showcase, that company would avoid the automatic limitations that come with products looking like mosaic'd pornography. With all restrictions lifted, the sky is the limit. Remove age restrictions, remove censorship requirements, a freedom to market to each and every available platform with the aid of me and a million other enthusiasts. Us without fear of getting our YouTube or social media account penalized and banned for exposure of rubber. Type in any given Phicen body model number into YouTube search and you'll be lucky to get more than 10 results while a new Hot Toys release will offer a wealthy of reviews with viral views. Phicen's seamless products are superior in quality and build to anything we've had in decades. Phil Tippett, the godfather modern stop-motion praises Phicen's skeletal armatures. He even stripped and repurposed a number of them for his muti-award winning film 'Mad God'. The same forever-lasting TPE material and stainless armature mechanism could be applied to popular monsters, aliens, mythical beasts and animals. It could've happened a decade ago. I believe what stopped it dead in its tracks is the silent stigma attached to the human product line. I wish I had the finance required to start my own 1/6 seamless product company... All I see is potential. Very little exemplary initiative. I sure hope that another company with some deep pockets will enter the 1/6 landscape with some less niche alternatives. I'd be rather disturbed to see a young child with a naked Phicen product as they appear today, but as a kid I would have killed for one... I would've saved my pocket money allowance week by week for one. Top toy innovation back then was a Jurassic Park rubber T-Rex. Had that T-Rex been as posable as a LAIKA stop-motion figure as Phicens are today, I think it would have greater exploded my imagination to assist in all my years as an aspiring artist... In our current world of screen-addiction with everything 3D/tech, I passionately tell anyone who'd listen that "touchable" physical sensory tools are as vital to a young one today as it is for them travel out to nature and take a soil bath! I speak of pleasure for the many, not just we.

Yah male appendages, I always place them into trousers. Without them the male torso looks too short! But its only its basic shape I need.

One Sixth Practical wrote:GubernatorFan, I do recognize that there is a vast market for such realism and there's clearly no lack of imagination shown by those who appreciate that visual aspect of them, so it's doubtful that Phicen or Jiaou will ever try to phase them out. But hypothetically speaking... if a new company was to produce seamless bodies of identical quality but without detailed features that must be visually censored for every image on retail showcase, that company would avoid the automatic limitations that come with products looking like mosaic'd pornography. With all restrictions lifted, the sky is the limit. Remove age restrictions, remove censorship requirements, a freedom to market to each and every available platform with the aid of me and a million other enthusiasts. Us without fear of getting our YouTube or social media account penalized and banned for exposure of rubber. Type in any given Phicen body model number into YouTube search and you'll be lucky to get more than 10 results while a new Hot Toys release will offer a wealthy of reviews with viral views. Phicen's seamless products are superior in quality and build to anything we've had in decades. Phil Tippett, the godfather modern stop-motion praises Phicen's skeletal armatures. He even stripped and repurposed a number of them for his muti-award winning film 'Mad God'. The same forever-lasting TPE material and stainless armature mechanism could be applied to popular monsters, aliens, mythical beasts and animals. It could've happened a decade ago. I believe what stopped it dead in its tracks is the silent stigma attached to the human product line. I wish I had the finance required to start my own 1/6 seamless product company... All I see is potential. Very little exemplary initiative. I sure hope that another company with some deep pockets will enter the 1/6 landscape with some less niche alternatives. I'd be rather disturbed to see a young child with a naked Phicen product as they appear today, but as a kid I would have killed for one... I would've saved my pocket money allowance week by week for one. Top toy innovation back then was a Jurassic Park rubber T-Rex. Had that T-Rex been as posable as a LAIKA stop-motion figure as Phicens are today, I think it would have greater exploded my imagination to assist in all my years as an aspiring artist... In our current world of screen-addiction with everything 3D/tech, I passionately tell anyone who'd listen that "touchable" physical sensory tools are as vital to a young one today as it is for them travel out to nature and take a soil bath! I speak of pleasure for the many, not just we.

PS. male appendages, I always place them into trousers. Without them the male torso looks too short! But its only its basic shape I need.  

So you do have a use for them, besides coloring test subjects.
Look, I was just calling you out for the phrasing, which seemed like protesting too much. If someone thinks you are a pervert for appreciating realism in something meant to be realistic, that's largely on them and their own imagination. I think that in a forum and a thread dedicated to the objective discussion and evaluation of such products we do not need shy disclaimers. To each his/her own, of course, but absolutely nothing requires you to display these bodies with their "appendages" on a webpage or video, if these are deemed unsuitable for the context or embarrassing to the creator/owner. Nothing at all. In fact, most video reviewers on YouTube have basically ignored these embarrassing bits and not displayed them for that very purpose -- other than mentioning their existence and sometimes making a lot of fun out of it -- but it is when they claim they can's see why they are included that they insult my intelligence (and their own). On a certain level, the fault is with prudishness and people perpetuating it. On the other hand, there is a time and a place. And if one "must" display the body for informational purposes, one can easily disguise the potentially offensive bits with either minimal clothing or digital or physical "fig leaves" (literally or figuratively) -- I should know, having done plenty of reviews of action figure bodies. Besides, TBLeague at least (not sure what Jiaou is doing these days), is pretty considerate in how it includes the "appendages" in its packaging, surely enough for us prudes to feel reasonably comfortable with their inclusion, should we choose to exclude them.
In terms of not needing to recourse to censorship, arguably the female bodies, where the potentially offensive bits are non-removable, are more of a challenge. Still, these bodies, for whatever purpose the customer chooses, are meant to be as realistic as possible, and realistic bodies come with all sorts of bits. While I may not have much practical use for the bits in question, I appreciate the commitment to realism and, whether for myself or for others, would rather have them and not need them than need them and not have them. These have never been meant for kids' toys, and surely a parent could exercise editorial intervention if they decided to provide them to a child (although in fact there are certain psychological approaches to child rearing that rely on dolls of some kind to provide basic physiological education to children -- I have no idea whether that is truly appropriate or to what extent).
In general, I applaud TBLeague's choice in making the appendages fully attachable/detachable -- so that one could use them or not, depending on their choice/needs. Jiaou, MAF, ADD, and World Box, on the other hand, have appendages sculpted as part of the male body's mold (although World Box's, at least in some instances, were supposedly removable). Theoretically, those would be more problematic. Which brings us back to the quandry with the realism of female bodies. Given the open nature of this forum, the potentially offensive bits should not be displayed. Yet, show me breasts sculpted without nipples, and I'll tell you, eh... they need nipples. But anyway, this is not the only reason these are not meant for children.

GubernatorFan, thank you for such detailed and considerate response. I whole heartedly agree with virtually every point you mention, so clearly there is somewhat of a miscommunication. I deserve to be called out for my brash comment on the appendages, but I was rather hoping to backtrack from that and offer a bit of context as to why I see a need for an alternative, which is not to be misconstrued as an insult to Phicen/TBL products which I absolutely LOVE. I simply see potential for an alternative line of products that people of all ages and sensitivity levels can enjoy. Prudishness exist across all societies and is something that virtually all companies must respect and cater to a reasonable degree if they are to go beyond the niche and tackle the mainstream market. For example I have a desire to share my Phicen-centric art as widely as possible, but if my own family is of any indicator to society at large, I personally find myself having to conceal the parts of the figures, especially of photos taken during the making process. I doubt if the majority of us collect and customize 1/6 with the primary desire to invoke jokes and nervous laughter from our family/peer. It is a side effect, and not any positive one at that. It can often cause people to retreat rather than take full pride and ownership of this artform. We are rare in our confidence to do so, but I want more of us to be confident without deterrent which is causing this artform to be rather suppressed in the scheme of where this collective venture could be. I envisage galleries of seamless figure art as large as Comic-Cons, not kept to phone cam shots on BST groups. It is unfortunate that an odd amount of stigma is attached to anatomically correct seamless figures while virtually none exist in other forms/mediums of art such as classic nude paintings. But it is just that, stigma, which is historically fluid and amendable. Needn't be an issue. For instance, if all initial robots were made as sex robots, general robotic innovation would come to a slow grind as societal stigma stifles investment in other robotics engineering sectors that might have otherwise propelled us towards such futures seen in film. In such case, non sexualized robots would save the day. I'm not at all against 'realism'. On the contrary. I want drastically more detail on seamless figures. I want anatomical human 3D assets that are being perfected daily by our world's top 3D sculptors (curated on ArtStation.com) to be acquired and printed to create a more realistic line of seamless bodies. Rinkles, veins, sagginess, in many shapes, sizes and ethnicities. It is partially the way that most Phicen/Jiaou bodies lack in such realism that causes stigma to begin with. Esthetically, smooth flawless bodies do resemble sex dolls. I'm sorry to say it bluntly but they do. Ironically, their private parts are the only accurately detailed parts of them. But for those ingenious products to receive the far wider public adoration and recognition that they deserve, they need to switch up their customer-base priorities, and if not them, then another company should. The world market is large! Surprised Hot Toys has yet to tackle the seamless TPE market.

Apologies, was longwinded. I've actually invested a great deal of time into engineering a new type of steel armature for seamless bodies. Patent-pending so I cannot disclose a single detail aside from this. I have a personal stake in the future of 1/6 is why I rant like this...

Very cool, I am intrigued as I have often thought of improved armature systems, although I have also wondered if TBLeague's patent doesn't get in the way of others developing something along those lines. I hope yours works, and that they are used in all sorts of products, including realistic ones.
Fair points about the art. Unfortunately we live in a world that is all about the extremes, and sensible balance is not much of a priority.
TBLeague insists on catering to certain stereotypes when it comes to their female bodies especially, and that certainly contributes to the effect you describe.

TBL patents will not get in the way since it is entirely other. I look forward to the day that I can discuss it in detail while showcasing my line of prototypes in current development. But it's at least a year away until I can speak on it on any capacity. Thank you for acknowledging my point on the larger picture of the art and industry as a whole

One Sixth Practical wrote: It is partially the way that most Phicen/Jiaou bodies lack in such realism that causes stigma to begin with. Esthetically, smooth flawless bodies do resemble sex dolls. I'm sorry to say it bluntly but they do. Ironically, their private parts are the only accurately detailed parts of them.

THANK YOU for saying it so bluntly like this, OneSixthPractical. The resemblance to sex dolls is in fact one of the main reasons I, as a female collector and customiser, was so hesitant to purchase female Tbleague bodies when I first started out in this hobby. (Not because of cultural stigma or embarassment, but rather because of own my personal views on such things, which I won't get into here.) I wasted a lot of time and money trying to find any possible alternative to using a seamless TPE body for that reason. I finally had to give up and cave in, since they *are* superior in posing ability to a lot of the regular plastic jointed bodies, and they allowed me to do characters with outfits that revealed their arms or shoulders. But I still get frustrated on a regular basis by the irony that I'm supposed to be using these seamless bodies to increase realism (no visible joints, etc), but in fact they are not very realistic in their overall shape and anatomy. It's an odd conundrum, so I would absolutely welcome seamless bodies that look more like a real human being, and less like an idealised (and oversexualised) doll.

Good luck with your attempts to create a line of bodies with more (actual) realism, since imo it is desperately needed in the hobby.

Skywalkersaga, thank you for your insight! So rarely do I hear it described from the female perspective that I am fascinated by your input. I try to get an angle from my wife on the occasion but it would be a rather forced answer since none of this is her cup of tea. Not cute enough! With the functionality of Phicen/TBL products in particular being far superior to plastic jointed figures, you would think that another company would at least attempt to fill the market void in more realistically shaped/detailed/varied seamless figures... But alas, as GubernatorFan has illuded to, Phicen's armature patents are likely to be a tough workaround for them. At least Phicen/TBL's latest line of female bodies such as the S28/29 or S46/47 does indicate a move toward the more natural female curvature, with a waistline wide enough to hold human digestive organs (lol), so I do very much commend them for that. With the older types, it was a logistic challenge for me to clothe and conceal certain skin and bone areas in order to increase plausible realism, while these new figure types allow for a less tactical approach to maintain realism. My armature invention is extremely versatile allowing me to create virtually any four limbed creature. The Homosapien is to my imagination the least fulfilling challenge as of now... but I would absolutely love to tackle the human form when my 'creature' passion has run its course.

I am very much looking forward to the big reveal of your armature!

Regarding TBL and seamless bodies:
I understand the idea, that bodies with less detailed reproductive organs might sell better internationally and therefore give our hobby a boost. But a few of the TBL female bodies already don't have details (or just vague details), in fact the earliest ones did!,  and I don't see retailers selling those models either. Of course they still have nipples... And maybe it is too late for TBL, since the mere association with detailed alternatives might frighten away retailers. 

I despise this kind of cultural censorship though. It is not the sight of a nipple that ruins kids. It is the unhealthy reactions they witness that potentially imprint them unhealthily.

In any case, of course I would appreciate more realism elsewhere on these bodies. I remember a few years ago there were discussions as to how much blushing and whatnot was done on the released bodies. Nowadays it seems normal that there is none.

However, I also understand that additional detail - may it be in sculpting muscles or painting/shading - would cost more. So I would appreciate the occasional more detailed body release, but I'd prefer the majority of releases to focus on keeping the pricing steady and therefore the results somewhat stylised.

Then again, we already have so many of those. So if they were to start releasing athletic/curvy bodies in various sizes with higher detail in the sculpt, I'd get about two per year for sure, even if they cost 20 to 40 bucks more. After all it is the increased muscle definition that has had me buy more of the S22/23 than any other body, despite the ridiculous upper thighs.

OneSixthPractical -- I'm glad my input was helpful in some way. : )

And Diana -- I'm not against genitalia on these figures, and I certainly don't find that offensive in and of itself whatsoever. It's only the wildly unrealistic body shapes of the figures that bothers me, because I don't like the idea of the design being catered to someone's fetishistic fantasy ideal of a human body. It would be nicer to be using seamless bodies that had more realistic -- and thus more neutral -- associations. As OneSixthPractical says, at least Tbleague has made some slightly more realistic bodies lately (curvy female bodies), but there's still certain things that bother me about those, so I'd defintely welcome an even more realistic approach.

Good points all round. I think it is interesting that (unlike Jiaou?), TBLeague has occasionally reined itself in, as it did relatively recently with a female body it marketed as a teenager one (S44A-S45A). A long time ago, its second male body (M31) came without the controversial appendages. In the "teenager" body case they might have been trying to preemptively tone down any accusations of being sleazy and exploitative. M31 may have been a response to too much prudish reaction to M30 (it certainly addressed other criticism, like the less realistic greyish skintone and the overly short stature). While I am not in the business of making sixth-scale pornography, I think both decisions, while understandable, were mistakes, although I am not a fan of either body for other reasons. Actually, TBLeague has redressed some of the mistakes with M31 since -- it is now complete and with better wrist joints that don't come apart (however, the basic body shape with the stretched out torso and the noodle elbows remains, I think). But the point is that they should not trim back on what they have offered before -- whether it is appendages or accessories, and if they advertise their products as realistic and anatomically correct, they should be. I may usually only need seamless shoulders, elbows, and knees, maybe abs, but I will usually not consider spending more than (say) $30 on a body that is not "realistic," i.e., not versatile enough for any conceivable purpose/look. Speaking of which, I agree with Sky and Practical, that by catering (and repeatedly so) to certain tastes, TBLeague has ended up dialing up the potential creepiness factor of their products. For this reasons and, again, realism, I agree they should be making more realistic and less "inflated" bodies, in a wider range of offerings, that would go a long way farther than the verbal disclaimer "this is not a sex toy" they include in their promotional materials. And, indeed, these are not sex toys (I don't think you can have sex with one -- please don't correct me if I'm wrong). But, yes, I can see what you mean, and I have cringed at it often enough myself.